This is supposed to be a thread about the tragedy that happened at Sea World recently but seems to have gone way off topic. Can we try and keep to topic please [msnsmile].
If you must debate the other issues then can you please start a fresh thread.
p.s. for the record, we're also a little uneasy about the merits of Sea World, but it is a great day out too [msnsmile].
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Father
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by floridadreamvilla.co.uk
This is supposed to be a thread about the tragedy that happened at Sea World recently but seems to have gone way off topic. Can we try and keep to topic please [msnsmile].[/quote]For the record, I disagree.
I don't see the above discussion as off-topic at all. Seems, in the main, highly relevant to me.[/quote]Yes, for what it's worth I agree with Father. The original post was merely a statement about the death of the trainer. I think this has prompted a very interesting and thought-provoking discussion on the validity of theme parks that utilise wild animals for entertainment purposes. This was, after all, what led directly to the death of the trainer.
Keith
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Father
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by lynnroy
..I suppose Seaworld ........ is helping conserve the whales in the wild if it uses its breeding program to release them.[/quote]I hope I'm not coming across as dense here but I still don't get this.
I thought a lot of the whales on show were held in captivity because they were orphaned and that whale calves could not survive without their mothers. If so, how can whale calves born in captivity be freed? Would they be able to survive or are the parent whales freed at the same time?
I am quite cynical about all of this. To be honest, although I am far more concerned with stoppping human suffering, like most of us, I am an animal lover. This whole 'breeding programme' thing seems to me to be a device dreamed up to somehow justify keeping wild animals as a highly lucrative form of entertainment.
Again I will stress that marine biology is one of many subjects I know little about but I have a good sense of smell and I smell something funny.[/quote]I'm not so convinced about the breeding program in Seaworld, simply because I don't know so much about it. Some zoos around the world definitely have well-planned breeding programs, and do return animals to the wild. But it's a catch-22...if mankind hadn't driven these animals close to extinction, we wouldn't need to instigate breeding programs to protect them.
I am sure that places like Seaworld contribute to our understanding od such marine creatures, but at what cost to tha animals themselves?
Keith
Sorry John, if I am part of the reason this has gone off topic. I obviously have a vested interest in marine research because of our son's background and career which is in marine research, currently with jellyfish (yuk, but somewhat better than when he was working with lemon sharks). In the past Andrew knew some of the Seaworld guys and gals on rescues and they sure do carry out a lot of them so I see both sides of the debate regarding Seaworld.
I think it is very very sad that a trainer was killed by an orca, a fairly atypical response by any type of captive dolphin. Should people be pointing the finger now at SeaWorld it should primarily be about the reported violent history of this particular mammal and the company's health and safety obligations to its staff.
On the rights and wrongs of keeping creatures in captivity for entertainment this thread could go on and on. Clearly if you disagree with it, then you don't go to SeaWorld and they don't get your dollars - you have made your choice. I trust you are consistent and don't own a hamster, goldfish or guinea pig. Or visit Gatorland, London Aquarium, Longleat or the zoo.
For those, including me, that do enjoy SeaWorld, to a point, in particular in how it allows us and our children to see these wonderful creatures up close, we can make the choice to attend. I would prefer not to see the shows but others love it. In the perfect world my family and I would see these creatures in their natural environment all over the world, rather than in a 'bath' - but the world isn't perfect. One thing for me, the anti - argument is far from compelling in this situation unlike the ones against bull fighting and the travelling circus. And the people who work with these creatures, clearly care about them.
Grayster- I think your post sums the situation up perfectly
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by grayster
I trust you are consistent and don't own a hamster, goldfish or guinea pig. Or visit Gatorland, London Aquarium, Longleat or the zoo.
[/quote]Hardly a reasonable analogy.
Surely the real point is whether a responsible pet owner or those type of places would put commercial considerations before safety if the animals caused harm to somebody? That's what Sea World appears to be doing here.
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Katys Grandad
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by grayster
I trust you are consistent and don't own a hamster, goldfish or guinea pig. Or visit Gatorland, London Aquarium, Longleat or the zoo.[/quote]Hardly a reasonable analogy.
Surely the real point is whether a responsible pet owner or those type of places would put commercial considerations before safety if the animals caused harm to somebody? That's what Sea World appears to be doing here.[/quote]Correct: which is why the SeaWorld's responsibility for its staff health and safety was the first point I raised. The issue here is that an employer may have endangered a member of staff and they were very sadly killed as a result (and a recurrence must be prevented). This is the direct issue in this terrible incident.
Whether orcas, or all other animals, should be held captive by humans is another much bigger discussion. And perhaps should be on another thread.
3 people have now died in the presence of Tili, but I do not believe any of them were 'savaged'. Tili was just doing what Orcas do. I get very upset when I keep reading he has savaged people. He was caught in the wild at 2 years of age and has been in captivity ever since, Sea World did not capture him just tried to give him a better life, my thoughts on keeping Orca's in captivity are mixed but however dreadful the incident was he was only behaving in a normal manner NOT an aggresive manner.
Lyn
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Lyn
3 people have now died in the presence of Tili, but I do not believe any of them were 'savaged'. Tili was just doing what Orcas do. I get very upset when I keep reading he has savaged people.... my thoughts on keeping Orca's in captivity are mixed but however dreadful the incident was he was only behaving in a normal manner NOT an aggresive manner.
[/quote]Very true. In their natural habitat Orcas often hunt and feed on seals and small whales. They have been filmed throwing seals up into the air, and dragging them under water, during the kill.
Pure speculation on my part of course, but I would think that a human in a wetsuit looks (to an Orca) remarkably like a seal.
There is a great danger in athropomorphising the behaviour of animals in captivity, which can often lead to the very tragic situations we've seen recently.<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Lyn
Sea World did not capture him just tried to give him a better life,[/quote]This bit I don't agree with. I doubt very much if Seaworld's motives were to give the animal a better way of life. They needed a new animal in their attraction and this one was available. It's analagous to moving someone from one jail to another...
Keith
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