Visa refused

[steph_goodrum]

I know that is correct because on our last trip the Immigration Officer was very friendly and he commented on how many times we had visited the States. We said we just love finding new places and my husband said he'd like to move, given half a chance. The IO said you realise you can come in 90 days and then leave and come back for another 90etc and we said we couldnt at the moment because of work commitments and he said well at least when you retire you have that option and specifically said and if any other Officer tells you that you can't be done, ask him to show you where it's written that you can't, and he wont be able to because it isn't.

[orlandodaze]

Thats good to know ,is it my imagination or are US Immigration Officers getting more friendlier than they used to be ? .Maybe they have learned the importance of a [msnsmile2].

[florida4sun]

Yes not problem with that. You just have watch out for the 180 day rule for tax.

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Snapper
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Robert5988
When it was pointed out by several of us that there is no restriction(I myself have visited 6 times a year for years) the advice from some on this forum was that you were lucky, or you are not acting in the spirit of the Visa waiver scheme and will get in trouble, 6 months is the maximum etc.[/quote]
Are you suggesting that it is OK to spend more than 6 months in any 12 month period in the US while travelling under the VWP?
[/quote]

[Robert5988]

Just returning to the question of being arrested and/or being convicted and entry under a Visa Waiver.

Perusing the US Regulations I came across this question in the FAQ section on the Visa Waiver Program:

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Question
Can I be admitted into the U.S. if I have either a misdemeanor or criminal record?

Answer
The U.S. does not deny entry to persons with a "Driving Under the Influence" conviction - although if there are multiple convictions for this and or other misdemeanors, you could be denied entry.[/quote] That also appears to be in line with all of the definitions(by precedence) for 'Offenses(sic) of Moral Turpitude' that I have read.

Now in the UK(and I believe most other countries) that offence always means an arrest and of course conviction speaks for itself.

Seems difficult to reconcile that statement, with the interpretation, of the US Embassy(for UK!!!) guidance notes, so often given on this forum.

[Katys Grandad]

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Robert5988
Just returning to the question of being arrested and/or being convicted and entry under a Visa Waiver.

Perusing the US Regulations I came across this question in the FAQ section on the Visa Waiver Program:

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Question
Can I be admitted into the U.S. if I have either a misdemeanor or criminal record?

Answer
The U.S. does not deny entry to persons with a "Driving Under the Influence" conviction - although if there are multiple convictions for this and or other misdemeanors, you could be denied entry.[/quote] That also appears to be in line with all of the definitions(by precedence) for 'Offenses(sic) of Moral Turpitude' that I have read.

Now in the UK(and I believe most other countries) that offence always means an arrest and of course conviction speaks for itself.

Seems difficult to reconcile that statement, with the interpretation, of the US Embassy(for UK!!!) guidance notes, so often given on this forum.
[/quote]

It's difficult to envisage a conviction for drink/driving without an arrest except perhaps where the driver is immediately taken to hospital and a blood test is taken there. If that were seen as an exception then the system is even more illogical that it seems.

I would also add that some of the examples given as offences of moral turpitude are not specific offences under English Law so it isn't possible to have a conviction for them from an English court.

I suspect that we have a case of American legal and cultural principles trying to be directly applied to UK citizens. No wonder it isn't clear!!

[Robert5988]

The new ESTA procedure for entry - that will soon be mandatory - gives some welcome clarification for those unsure how to answer the question:

" Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?"


<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Crimes involving moral turpitude - Such offenses generally involve conduct which is inherently base, vile, or depraved and contrary to the accepted rules of morality and the duties owed to persons or society in general. There are factors, such as the age of the offender or the date of the offense, that may affect whether an offense will be considered a crime involving moral turpitude for purposes of the Immigration and Nationality Act.

For further information refer to § 212(a)(2) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(2), § 101(a)(43) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, 8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(43) and corresponding regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations[/quote]

[Katys Grandad]

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Robert5988
The new ESTA procedure for entry - that will soon be mandatory - gives some welcome clarification for those unsure how to answer the question:

" Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?"


<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Crimes involving moral turpitude - Such offenses generally involve conduct which is inherently base, vile, or depraved and contrary to the accepted rules of morality and the duties owed to persons or society in general. There are factors, such as the age of the offender or the date of the offense, that may affect whether an offense will be considered a crime involving moral turpitude for purposes of the Immigration and Nationality Act.

For further information refer to § 212(a)(2) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(2), § 101(a)(43) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, 8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(43) and corresponding regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations[/quote]


[/quote]

That does help but I still can't understand why 'arrested' is viewed in the same light as 'convicted' and what does 'aggregate sentence to confinement' mean?

[steph_goodrum]

Aggregate sentence to confinement means if you have prison sentences totalling 5 years or more so either if for example you have a 1yr +2yr + 3yr sentence that would toal or (aggregate) to 6 years so would need to apply for a visa.
Dont forget the Americans are using their interpretation of "arrest" in the US it may amount to an assumption of guilt but since they are using the same rule to cover 27 visa waiver counrties cant apply all their definitions of arrest to decide their rules.

[Robert5988]

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:That does help but I still can't understand why 'arrested' is viewed in the same light as 'convicted' and what does 'aggregate sentence to confinement' mean?[/quote]

Agreed the link between 'arrest' and 'convicted' doesn't make sense,

I assume 'aggregate sentence to confinement' means 'sent to jail for 5 years' but again badly worded.

[Katys Grandad]

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by steph_goodrum
Aggregate sentence to confinement means if you have prison sentences totalling 5 years or more so either if for example you have a 1yr +2yr + 3yr sentence that would toal or (aggregate) to 6 years so would need to apply for a visa.

[/quote]

I understand that point but it would only apply for 'conviction'. The definition includes 'arrested' and I can't see how you can calculate the aggregate if somebody is ultimately acquitted and, presumably, not subject to sentence.