Recession concerns

Hiya

I really hope I do not embarrass myself or upset any villa owners out there.

I am booking my first ever Florida Holiday and am in the process of shortlisting villas.

I am about to book the villa end of May beginning June for May 2010 and pay for it in advance, which is something I would rather do in order to have piece of mind. What happens if the owner loses it to the recession and I am left without accommodation and ruined first trip to Florida.

Can anyone advise me on this, what is the best way to go about it pay upfront or wait until nearer the time and is my money protected?

Teena Beena

Hi Teena
Why do you want to pay all the money As owners ask for a deposit and balance to be paid 8 or 10 weeks before vacation so you can save .
Villa owners on here are all verifed every 6 months and you know that the villa you get will have photos taken by themselves and will keep their villa up todate .
Hope you enjoyed your vacation
MAUREEN
www.onlinefloridavillas.com/villas/1683.aspx

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by mfairhurst
Hi Teena
Why do you want to pay all the money As owners ask for a deposit and balance to be paid 8 or 10 weeks before vacation so you can save .
Villa owners on here are all verifed every 6 months and you know that the villa you get will have photos taken by themselves and will keep their villa up todate .
Hope you enjoyed your vacation
MAUREEN
www.onlinefloridavillas.com/villas/1683.aspx[/quote] Thanks so much for your help I will take your advice. I wanted to book and pay for it all so that it was a complete load off my mind :)

Teena Beena

Why not just pay the deposit (that's all that's required on booking more than 8 - 12 weeks in advance), open yourself a building society account and pay your balance payment money into that? At least you'll get some interest (not much currently I admit!) between now and when you need to pay the balance.

On your shortlist be wary of any villas that seem too cheap. Now I know some will argue with me but its not rocket science to realise that a very cheap villa cannot be covering all their costs and it is more likely that the owner will not be around in a year. This is a generalisation before some posters "say I got it really cheap", etc.

There are other posts about it on the forum but with a 75% mortgage or so and to run a villa to a decent standard costs a considerable amount per month. As they say "just do the maths." Don't risk a cheap villa unless you know the owners or have very good recommendations.

Pay the deposit then put the rest in a account you cannot touch for 9 months.

Good luck,
Andrew

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote: On your shortlist be wary of any villas that seem too cheap. Now I know some will argue with me but its not rocket science to realise that a very cheap villa cannot be covering all their costs and it is more likely that the owner will not be around in a year. This is a generalisation before some posters "say I got it really cheap", etc.

There are other posts about it on the forum but with a 75% mortgage or so and to run a villa to a decent standard costs a considerable amount per month. As they say "just do the maths." Don't risk a cheap villa unless you know the owners or have very good recommendations.[/quote]You are quite correct Andrew, some will argue with you!

If you want to talk about ‘rocket science’ figures and 'maths', some owners bought some years ago for less than $150k, some paid 3 times that amount.

Some have a huge mortgage, others own outright.

Many owners simply do not run their properties in Florida as a strictly business venture, and are happy to subsidise their property and take the view that a low rent is better than nothing.

I own outright and don’t rent out my property; it is my ‘place in the sun’. Should I choose to rent, any modest rent would be a bonus.

IMO on the risk of an owner ‘cutting and running’ there are simply no grounds to assume there is any correlation between high rental and low rental. Indeed there is an argument that an owner that ‘needs’ to charge a high rent is more vulnerable.

Hi Teena, I agree with Andrew, pay your deposit and put it in an interest account one where you have to give notice, so it isn't easily accessible and although there won't be much interest it would be a little something.

With respect Robert, if you don't rent out your home (condo?) then there are not inconsiderable additional expenses involved in doing so of which you may not be aware. So your 'bonus' (and more) would be a necessary requirement. If you were to rent out your home, then you would not be able to run it on the same sum as you do currently.

Unless you subsidise your guests' stays, then charging a realistic rent is the only way to keep it in tip top condition for your rental guests. Your saying that a higher rental owner is more vulnerable is therefore misguided. A lower rental owner will not have funds to keep the home up to date nor pay the increased bills that multiple occupancy brings - unless they use their own money as a subsidy - a far more vulnerable position IMO.

If possible pay your deposit by credit card if it makes you feel more secure, and take out adequate travel insurance. I'm sure you'll be just fine but peace of mind is a pirce worth paying for, even if it incurs credit card charges.

I can understand your concerns and vulnerability and would just like to say you are not alone. As owners we take bookings sometimes a couple of years in advance based on a holding deposit, should guests circumstances change and by the time the balance is due they have to cancel, through unforseen circumstances, unlike guests, we can get no insurance to cover that and often may be left with 2/3 weeks spaces with only a few weeks notice. Unlike an hotel we don't benefit from walkins and don't have income from other rooms to cover the costs for those weeks.

Although in theory we could reduce the rate for those who are booking at the last minute, many owners, like myself feel theat those guests who may have booked up to 2 years in advance, and entrusted us with their deposit, deserve to get a fair deal and not to find that if they had left it later they may have got it cheaper. I know I've been in that position with UK holidays and it has left me feeling a little aggrieved that early booking hasn't been rewarded. Of course those booking late also have to take the chance on what is available when they come to book and may have to accept their first choice isnt going to be available, which is why we would rather pay a little more to secure what we want.

I would just pay the deposit like the others have said and put into a seperate account.
As for worrying about the villa, chose the one you would like to stay in and have a chat with the owner, i am sure they could provide ref. from previous guests to help ease your concerns. Also as others have said homes are verifyed on this site on a regular bases.

Have lots of fun planning your first trip you will find lots of good information and help on here.

Mary

Hi Teena

Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't fully understand your concerns here. You say that you will have peace of mind by paying the full amount upfront but that will give you worries about whether the property you want to rent will still be there in 12 months time. I think the advice that you just pay a deposit now and keep your money safe until it's time to pay the balance makes a lot of sense. As far as the issue of losing your deposit is concerned, I'd suggest negotiating with the owner on that point or perhaps taking out insurance.

Hi Teena

Here's a slightly different spin on this for you. Once you have a shortlist of villas for your trip, why not pose this very question directly to each of the villa owners. No villa owner (at least none that I know) would ever consider taking offence at such a question and as far as I can think every villa owner that I do know would be very happy with the opportunity to put your mind at ease. You might get some quite entertaining replies too. [msnsmile2]

As a pointer from someone who knows the villa business reasonably well, I would also disagree with Robert's post (above). The 'some income is better than no imcome' is a phrase I've heard a lot over the past few years. Many of the people I've heard it from are no longer in business. The simple fact of running any business (and a villa is a business) is that if you charge less than what it costs you, you go bust. It happens to banks. It happened to Enron. It happens to restaurants every day. And it happens to villas. And any villa owner who tells you that they are not running a business, and that they are only looking to cover costs, or are only looking for some income ... well ... IMHO, they're already well down that road.

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:With respect Robert, if you don't rent out your home (condo?) then there are not inconsiderable additional expenses involved in doing so of which you may not be aware. So your 'bonus' (and more) would be a necessary requirement. If you were to rent out your home, then you would not be able to run it on the same sum as you do currently.

Unless you subsidise your guests' stays, then charging a realistic rent is the only way to keep it in tip top condition for your rental guests. Your saying that a higher rental owner is more vulnerable is therefore misguided. A lower rental owner will not have funds to keep the home up to date nor pay the increased bills that multiple occupancy brings - unless they use their own money as a subsidy - a far more vulnerable position IMO.[/quote]Blott,

I was fully aware of additional expenses involved in renting, even before reading the hundreds of posts on this and other forums on the subject.

You have moved the discussion away from the point I was answering namely that a low rental is no indication that the owner is likely to 'cut and run'.

However to answer the point you raised - the issue is what is a 'realistic rent'.

I have been at pains to point out in earlier threads that many people are prepared to rent out their units at uneconomic rents. However that is very different from what they might consider to be a realistic rent.

If they bought years ago at a fraction of the prices paid later, have no mortgage, and are prepared to subsidise their 'place in the sun' then they can charge a low rent.

I cannot see the logic that determines that these owners, who are not under financial pressure, are more likely to 'cut and run'.

The big problems in Florida housing have come from those who have over-stretched themselves.

I am on the Board of my Condo association and see all the finances. We have had 3 owners all with mortgages of well over $500,000 who have just walked away from the property and taken a big loss! With the $10,000+ property tax bill, condo fees etc - that is real financial pressure!

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Katys Grandad
Hi Teena

Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't fully understand your concerns here. You say that you will have peace of mind by paying the full amount upfront but that will give you worries about whether the property you want to rent will still be there in 12 months time.
[/quote]

I interpreted that as her really saying that she would like to pay for the villa in full so that she knows that this is paid and can concentrate on saving up and budgeting for other aspects of her holiday.

Lots of holidaymakers do this. It may not make much financial sense but psychologically it is good to know that certain things are paid in full and you don't need to worry about them.

The key question would appear to be when she asks if her payment is protected as it would be if she booked through other avenues.

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:As a pointer from someone who knows the villa business reasonably well, I would also disagree with Robert's post (above). The 'some income is better than no imcome' is a phrase I've heard a lot over the past few years. Many of the people I've heard it from are no longer in business. The simple fact of running any business (and a villa is a business) is that if you charge less than what it costs you, you go bust. It happens to banks. It happened to Enron. It happens to restaurants every day. And it happens to villas. And any villa owner who tells you that they are not running a business, and that they are only looking to cover costs, or are only looking for some income ... well ... IMHO, they're already well down that road.[/quote]Snapper,
We go through this time and time again!

Firstly you run your villa as a business, others don't!

Secondly,
Take villa owner A with no mortgage and sitting on a capital gain on his property.

Villa owner B with a $300,000k US$ mortgage and is sitting on a large capital loss in property value.

It is a lot easier to survive as a business if your overheads(mortgage in this case) are lower.

Villa owner A is in a position to undercut Villa owner B in rental.

I raised the issue about my property simply to demonstrate that(thankfully) I am not under financial pressure. i.e. I can, and do, run my property without renting.

I could rent my condo for an uneconomic rent and easily cover my additional expenses, plus a profit to defray my own costs.

Would that make me more likely 'cut and run'?

Robert,

"IMO on the risk of an owner ‘cutting and running’ there are simply no grounds to assume there is any correlation between high rental and low rental."

Agree to disagree:D

I don't have the figures to hand but I believe there was a huge increase in villa ownership and rental properties as prices increased which to me indicates there are a huge numbers of owners bought expensive homes and who need the rent. I believe the majority need to rent out.

The original specific question was answered with ideas about putting the balance in deposit accounts etc. The poster has not yet chosen, obviously is concerned about foreclosures and "may' wish to have some input into why owners may "cut and run" as you say.

If all the properties considered are in the same sort of price bracket then a much cheaper one would worry me. Why take the risk.

Also I don't want this thread to turn into another anti owner/ owners always post the same thing argument so just DM me.

Andrew

I think the original poster has a valid point that she wanted addressing.

She wants to know if her booking is protected in these tough times.

I don't have a home that i rent, so can be independant as i do know the rental market.

Firstly all the owners point to the fact that they are verified regulary (6 months) by this site. What does this actually mean to the potential renter? Does it mean that his site will guarantee bookings and deposits.....no. You may not want to admit this, but other than confirming the house is there and is owned by x owner, what does it mean?

As for Andrew's logic that the home that charges more is a better prospect, this is ridiculous!

Much like Robert quotes, the home that has higher mortgage costs will probably be the first to go if it doesn't get bookings for x amount of weeks. So i fail to see Andrew's logic other than to justify charging higher prices.

I agree that some owners go the extra mile and spend lots on there home and may or may not charge more for the priviledge, but then again the owner in dire straits who can't make ends meet and never invests in the home may also be charging higher rates just because they are greedy.

If i go to buy a new TV, i don't go to the shop with the most expensive, i shop around for what i want and make an educated decision on what i want to spend for the features/quality offered.

Back to the original point, the site try's its best to convince possible renters that they are safe booking on here, but there is no ABTA or ATOL connection and no guarantee's by the site. So the renter has to make a leap of faith with their money.
Before you all comeback, yes i know the leap of faith a villa owner also makes, but this is about the question from a renter.

The best advice has ben given, make your choice, pay the deposit and put the rest away somewhere safe. Then take out insurance in case the worst happens.

As for all the other stuff, its just smoke and mirrors.

I have no axe to grind, infact i look after a home for an owner on here. I just feel the plain facts should be presented.

As to the suggestion of just paying a deposit and putting the rest in an interest account... the villa owners I know are less likely to "cut and run" than some of the banks at the moment (and more honest) !!!
[msnwink]

Three companies that provided travel from UK to Florida - BA, Virgin and TCD. One (TCD) advertised lower prices than the others. Which one went out of business first, causing difficulties to customers who had booked with them?

Hi Tina,

You have asked a very sensible question and as a villa owner who rents their properties it doesn’t upset me at all.

IMHO when renting a villa you should proceed with the same caution you would when purchasing anything. First book your villa from a reputable site like the ones here. Having a villa verified on these sites means the villa does actually exist and belongs to the person advertising it. Unfortunately there have been scams where guests have arrived to find the villa they were expecting wasn’t the one at the address given. Or they were unable to gain entry as the scammer had used the details of a real property without the owner knowing anything about it. With the verification system this can't happen if you book through here.

If you pay the deposit and then the balance when due, preferably on a credit card you will be further protected. You should also take out travel insurance checking that the small print covers you should the villa you booked not be available for your stay.

Finally in life you generally get what you pay for and villas are no exception. There is no official rating system similar to a hotel star rating, so if you want a top of the range villa you should be prepared to pay a reasonable amount for it. After all you wouldn’t reasonably expect a room at the Hilton at Motel 8 rates! The rental market in Florida is extremely competitive and offers incredible value. Personally as an owner I would rather have fewer rentals at a fair rate than pack my home back to back with guests paying peanuts just to make ends meet. That way I am able to keep my home in tip top condition and I can keep upgrading it.

Have fun choosing the home for your stay, by using your instincts and common sense I’m sure you won’t have a problem and will have an amazing holiday.

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Father
I interpreted that as her really saying that she would like to pay for the villa in full so that she knows that this is paid and can concentrate on saving up and budgeting for other aspects of her holiday.

Lots of holidaymakers do this. It may not make much financial sense but psychologically it is good to know that certain things are paid in full and you don't need to worry about them.[/quote]Indeed, but it seems clear that, psychologically, all that would do in this case is replace 1 worry with another.<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by alastair
Three companies that provided travel from UK to Florida - BA, Virgin and TCD. One (TCD) advertised lower prices than the others. Which one went out of business first, causing difficulties to customers who had booked with them?[/quote]So are you advocating only ever paying the highest price available for air fare, car hire, insurance and accommodation?

Nina A,
A well structured answer without blowing smoke up anyones.................[clap]

"As for Andrew's logic that the home that charges more is a better prospect, this is ridiculous!"

No! I said that there is a chance that the cheaper homes would not be covering their costs and therefore a worse prospect; don't spin it the other way.

I also said that if all the short listed villas are roughly the same price except for one then that was a lot cheaper then that would raise a red flag to me.

It is not an exact way to work but if the original poster is worried then I tried to offer one way of looking at it. Foreclosures occur because people cannot pay the mortgage; to me that says an owner hasn't made enough money from rentals.

Ask the owner how long they have had the home and if it was purchased in 2004, 2205 or 2206 possibly then it would have cost a lot of money.

As i said to Robert I don't want to go off in a totally different direction from the original question so DM Frosty if you want to argue. I'll give you my phone number and we can "talk."

Andrew

From the "guest"'s point of view:

To answer the original question:
I fully understand the psychological aspect of paying in full now to be done with it: it's not rational, it just feels good. But it works too if you put the money on a saving account, in your safe, in your cookie box, in your kids' piggie :D. I thought about doing it when I rented (from this site), then didn't and paid only the deposit. Then spent a few months chatting with the owner, asking questions, and by the time the balance was taken I felt very comfortable with my renting. Of course I could still listen to the people who tell me: "OMG how could you rent from a private owner when you get there it might not be there or in ruins blah blah blah". I could worry, I decided not to, because I've come to trust the people I'm renting from, and it's not rational either, some will say.
So my advice is: exchange with your potential owners, I've found them quite quick to answer questions even when I had not made up my mind yet. Ask your questions, make your choice, pay the deposit, stash the money somewhere, and do not hesitate contacting your chosen owner when you have a question.

About the debate which has developed on the side, still from the guest's point of view: I paid what I found was a reasonable price for the villa I rented, with the amenities it offered at the time I wanted to rent. It happens it was one of the cheapest I had selected, with another 2 or 3 (can't remember now). Reasonable for me might be expensive for some, and cheap for others.
I own a B&B, in the family house, which has been in the family since the 17th century. I took the business over when my parents retired. Places me in the "no mortgage" situation I guess. It's not my main activity, we just see it as a mean to keep the property in good shape, and meeting interesting people from all over the world, so I can offer "reasonable" rates, which some of my colleagues in the area would call "cheap". But I cover my expenses, and even make a profit, which is often invested in renovating another part of the house, changing the decoration, or helps pay the taxes! I take great pride in my house and keep it in great shape. It would pain me if someone told me he wouldn't stay at my place on the assertion that being cheaper than the average I'm probably offering lower quality accomodation. It would simply be not true. Same probably applies to those owners who have bought many many years ago, and whose property is paid for.

I would not stay at your place Lafifille if you were among the cheapest in your area. I have learnt, in my many years of travelling, that you almost certainly get exactly what you pay for! Maybe that would not be the case with your B&B but I've learnt not to risk it, especially with my valuable vacation time.

I have to ask the question: Why are you leaving money on the table just because your expenses are less than those of other similar businesses in your area?

If you are marketing solely on price, that is not the most important factor for most people. Sure, they want a bargain, but that doesn't mean that they want cheap. There is a very big difference.

Carla:
I'm not saying I'm practicing cheap prices, I'm saying I'm practising what I consider reasonable rates, that SOME of my colleagues would qualify cheap. I could equally qualify their prices as outrageous. Our business is doing very well, thank you, and has done so for about 40 years, which I think is entitling me to voice my opinion. I can understand that someone who has heavily invested on a short period of time needs to ask for more money than I am, and it's fine with me. I just don't agree if they say "we're more expensive so we're better".
I am not marketing on price (who said that?), and you're right, most people consider more important to have quality accomodation, peace, beautiful setting, good regional food, and above all a friendly welcome. I'm a member of a well-known association that would kick me out in a blink if people complained. Thus my parallel with renting a villa from a private owner on this site. I'm not saying it's the same, I just think it's similar enough.

To answer your question: we're several in the area to practice the same rates. Most of us have been here for a long time, and have seen enough sad stories to stick to a "reasonable" attitude, which has kept up in business this far, and gets us a very nice side income indeed.

I'm sorry if anyone has felt personnally assaulted by my very humble opinion on the subject, because in fact I was just trying to reassure the OP, not to start another heated debate around my business, which is definitely irrelevant here.

Just a polite reminder to keep this thread on topic. This is not the place to discuss pricing strategies or otherwise for villas or any other rental home. There is a perfectly good Villa Owners Area further down the page for that [msnwink].

TeenaBeena,

I have rented lots of villas directly from the owners in Florida and across Europe and NEVER had an problems at all. I have one rule of thumb only - speak to the owners and raise an questions / concerns you have with them direct. This is the only way that you can be sure that they are someone who you want to entrust your holiday with. Everyone I have rented a villa from has been really helpful, friendly and happy to answer any questions I may have, if they are not then they get screened out, simple.

All the rest is just noise. Every owners circumstances are different and to suggest that these can be understood by looking at price or where / how they market their villa is just plain daft. I think we could all predict that people who own villas are going to suggest that high prices are good and people who rent villas are more likely to be concerned about paying the right price - no surprise there.

Decide how much you want to pay, draw up your short list, speak to the owners and go with the one you like and trust and everything will be fine.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by alastair
Three companies that provided travel from UK to Florida - BA, Virgin and TCD. One (TCD) advertised lower prices than the others. Which one went out of business first, causing difficulties to customers who had booked with them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Katy's Grandad
So are you advocating only ever paying the highest price available for air fare, car hire, insurance and accommodation?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, my post did not advocate anything. It only provided a piece of factual information.

Like Fraserlynn I have booked and used private villas all over Europe and Florida. We have never had any problems and the villas have been lovely. The last villa we had in Florida was what you would probably class as cheap. It was lovely (the kitchen and bathrooms were a little dated but that doesn't bother us) and we plan to book it again for our next visit. Looking at their visitor books they have had the villa for a long time and lots of repeat visitors. They looked like they had owned the villa for at least 12 years so there outlay could be considerably less than someone else and obviously they haven't spent money on renovations. At the end of the day you pay your money and make your choice. We spend little time in the villa so do not need it to be '5 star'. As far as the money goes I would do as previously suggested and save in an account. We are doing this with the mortgage money we are saving. Excellent regular saver account rates in Barclays and Halifax[msnsmile2]

I don't think any of us could say if your money is safe..I don't think how much you pay has much to do with it..I've seen bad homes that cost a lot to rent...and good homes that are cheaper..things can go belly up for anyone very quickly..but you take that risk even with a travel company..I would pay a deposit and keep the rest in the bank..

Have a great holiday..:)

Interesting thread, sorry to drag it up, I take 3 holidays per year, 1 to USA, 1 to Tenerife and 1 to Majorca.

At each of these holidays I always rent a villa, this year was very interesting, and clearly due to the recession I was able to negotiate fantastic rates with the villa owners. Bookings this year have been down in these countries from between 30% and 50% and the owners have had to realise that if they want bookings they need to reduce their prices, for example the villa we stayed in 2 weeks ago in Majorca - MID August - advetised for 2495 Euros, (that is what they quoted me) in the end I paid just 700 Euros for the week, the booking was extreme last minute, just 3 days before we arrived, but villa owners have started to realise that 700 Euros is better than none at all! for that week.

And things aren't getting any better in the UK or USA so when I book my villa for March 2010 I will be laughing at the prices the villa owners come back with and I guarantee I will get at least 20-30% off the quoted prices.

Some of you villa owners may be thinking, noooo way, I won't be reducing my prices, but I think you should all think very carefuly when someone wants a 30% discount off your prices, some money is better than no money at all.

I look at the availability calendars on many villa owners sites and they have sooo many spare weeks, surely some money is better than no money at all!!! Yes I know you have overheads, but they are nowhere near the prices quoted!!

And in response to the original thread, I absolutely would NOT pay for a villa up front like you are thinking of, stick it in a bank account and then pay by credit card, this recession is nowhere near over !!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Mark and welcome eto the forums.

As it's such an old thread I'm sure it won't matter if it's not quite on topis but one of the observations you have bought up interested me.

We have found an increasing tendency for enquirers to do exactly what you have suggested and it intrigues me somewhat as to how the conclusions you make are arrived at, not just by yourself but by many people.

You say you will be laughing at the prices that will be quoted to you as you will obviously feel they are unrealistic, (however on another thread you have already commented that you have many requirements that have not been met on previousl trips, perhaps because you have chosen homes that are cheaper?), yet you do not know the costs of operating the homes as a business. There are so many costs both obvious and hidden, including but not limited to

Mortgage, Property tax, Sales and Tourist taxes (approx 13% of rental in most Counties), Insurance, Hoa fees, Lawncare, Pool maintenance, Pest Control, Electric, Water, Management/Caretaker fees, Cable tv, Internet provider, telephone, licensing fees, adverting and marketing, administration for bookings, computer and office equipment and time in the UK etc. In addition to these costs there is also the unknown/unseen costs such as ongoing maintenance and upkeep, replacement of equipment, appliances, air con, pool heaters etc and the everyday items like bedding, linen etc. which need to be replaced regularly and for which contingency has to be included . This is without the issues of upgrades and extras which all need to be budgeted for.

Many of the costs you may feel are comparable to your own home but the truth is we pay 3-4 times for insurance what we do in the UK for more cover. Our electric and water bills are at least double the rate of our UK home and many other costs do not correlate at all to what we would expect.

If I were to go to Virgin, or Tesco etc. with my requirements and query the price I am quoted, I am pretty certain their reply would be "It's not an offer it's the price". Despite the fact that, as I am sure you know Retail mark up prices are typically 30/50% above cost price and therefore the price quoted bears no relation to the cost to the supplier.

As I say it is out of curiosity as to how people determine determine what is a fair price I am asking becasue we do get many requests along the lines of "my airline tickets and park tickets cost me more than I expected so I can't afford to pay the price you have quoted, therby letting us know that they have afforded the prices quoted by the other companies but somehow feel that should mean they don't have to pay full price for their accommodation (well certainly their preferred accommodation). If we can learn from their expectations then it may be that they would prefer more basic accommodation without the frills and can then trim the costs accordingly. As you mention you are a seasoned traveller then it is the opinion of people like yourself that may have some influence.

5 day Disney tickets would cost the average family around the same as the cost of 2 weeks on average that most villas would cost. Bearing in mind that accommodation is then available to them 24/7 for 14 days but the park only during opening hours for 5 days it doesnt really correlate and similarly the flight price may be the same for one person as the accomodation for the party for the week.

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by makuk
And things aren't getting any better in the UK or USA so when I book my villa for March 2010 I will be laughing at the prices the villa owners come back with and I guarantee I will get at least 20-30% off the quoted prices.

Some of you villa owners may be thinking, noooo way, I won't be reducing my prices, but I think you should all think very carefuly when someone wants a 30% discount off your prices, some money is better than no money at all.[/quote]
Au Contraire Mark ...

This year I have booked more weeks at a higher rate than last year. Last year I booked more weeks at a higher rate than the year before. That's been the story for every year since I bought the villa. My rates go up because the cost of running the place goes up. If I want to cut rates, I also need to cut quality.

Next year is looking even better!

So your logic, which really feels like it is taken straight from the doom-and-gloom media if you don't mind me saying so, really doesn't seem to apply.

I am sure many other owners are the same!

As for your approach to renting villas ... perhaps this is why, to quote your very own words from the enquiry you sent this morning, ...

However for the last few years the villas have not had everything I need/wanted

Curious!! [msnwink][msnwink][msnwink]

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by steph_goodrum


If I were to go to Virgin, or Tesco etc. with my requirements and query the price I am quoted, I am pretty certain their reply would be "It's not an offer it's the price". Despite the fact that, as I am sure you know Retail mark up prices are typically 30/50% above cost price and therefore the price quoted bears no relation to the cost to the supplier.

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And, as we all know, Virgin and Tesco never, ever reduce their prices or have special offers to reflect market conditions.[msnwink]

They do, but it is at their choice and discretion. They decide where they can reflect cost savings or have products with limited shelf life etc. and then make the offer, the difference I am trying to make is that I couldnt go to them and tell them how much I wish to pay and expect them to sell me their product for that price. They don't work on the same principal as many overseas street markets where haggling and bartering are the norm and neither should any business that wants to continue trading at a high standard without subsidising costs from their own external sources, which it is pretty obvious that if outgoings exceed income is going to be the case.

Interesting replies which I knew I would receive, it is also good to see that you are making more money this year than you did last year.

My requirements are what I have decided I want from a villa, not the fact that the villa promised me I would recieve this, but over the last few years this is what I have decided I want from a villa.

It is fact that there are more villas available in a certain week than there are people looking for villas in that week, if this was not the case then every villa in florida would be full for every week of the year.

It is most definately a renters market right now and I have set a budget for my villa rental and will not pay more and I know I will get what I want at the price I want to pay. And in fact this year I want 2 villas so that's a nice little booking for someone!!

It is now up to the villa owners to either take the price I want to pay, hold out for a better booking or MAYBE have an empty villa for the 2 weeks - Some money is clearly better than an empty villa!! And as I am looking for March it's not exactly a busy time of the year!

It is clear that villa owners CAN reduce prices, they just don't want to, the reason we know this is because you charge different prices for different months!

This year I stayed at Crescent Lakes, in the street I was staying at 3 villas owned by UK owners had foreclosed that year, perhaps they were standing their ground and only taking the price they had advertised and not reducing their prices to ensure they could pay their mortgage!! Maybe if they had they would still be there.

And with regards to Virgin, "I KNOW FOR A FACT" that within the next 3 months they will be reducing their air fares from London to Orlando, currently they are about £450 return, within 3 months these same flights will be reduced to about £250 return.

Out of interest Steve, how are your bookings for the rest of this year, are you fully booked for 2009?

In my opinion for what it is worth:)

March is actually a busy month as American guests have spring break during March usually;)

Some money is not better than no money at all to an intelligent villa owner as guests cause wear and tear and use utilities;)

Mark - I think you have your facts and figures mixed up a little. I will give you the best answer I can. If you don't agree that's entirely your perogative. I also will make this the last post to avoid the thread degenerating as these threads often do ...

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by makuk

It is fact that there are more villas available in a certain week than there are people looking for villas in that week, if this was not the case then every villa in florida would be full for every week of the year.[/quote]
I don't think this is a fact. If you can point me to an official source of this statistic I'll happily agree with you. Until then - this is your opinion.

Personally I think it is wrong and despite everything you might read in the media I don't see any supply/demand imbalance. Over 70,000,000 (70 million) people a year visit Orlando. There are around 20,000 vacation homes. Personally I think that half of these homes are very tired and run-down (none that you would find on these sites I should add). There is plenty of supply in my eyes.

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by makuk

It is most definately a renters market right now ...[/quote]
That actually depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for 'average' I dare say you are right. Perhaps this is why you have been disappointed in the last few years. Top end villas are booking out over 12 months in advance. That doesn't sound like a renters market to me!

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by makuk
Some money is clearly better than an empty villa!![/quote]
Sadly it isn't, and is why many owners are finding themselves foreclosed right now.

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by makuk
And as I am looking for March it's not exactly a busy time of the year![/quote]
Errrrr - who told you that? March is hugely busy! You are looking at this from your own point of view and then making sweeping assumptions that the rest of the world is the same. It isn't! March is very very busy indeed.

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by makuk
It is clear that villa owners CAN reduce prices, they just don't want to, the reason we know this is because you charge different prices for different months![/quote]
A villa owner can do anything they choose. Some choose to price the same all year round. Some choose to vary prices. Villa's cost a different amount to run at different times of the year. You'll find a different approach from each villa owner.

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by makuk
This year I stayed at Crescent Lakes, in the street I was staying at 3 villas owned by UK owners had foreclosed that year, perhaps they were standing their ground and only taking the price they had advertised and not reducing their prices to ensure they could pay their mortgage!! Maybe if they had they would still be there.[/quote]
Perhaps they subscribed to the 'any amount is better than an empty villa theory'. Sadly, and quite apt to the original question of this thread, any owner who charges less per week than the villa costs to run will eventually go bankrupt (based on the number of weeks that they expect to sell, or are capable of selling). They may choose to fund the shortfall

I too rent villas regularly (at least twice) ever year and agree with much of what has been said on both sides. At the end of the day you get what you pay for.

The bit which I find very hard to agree with is that a cheap rental means a risky rental, I just don't see how this can ever be a straight equation.

If we take the retailing analogy that has already been offered then this is like saying that Lidls is more likely to go bankrupt than Waitrose, clearly not the case. Each are totally different business models and both are set up to be profitable and yet their price points are completely different. Some people will choose to shop at Lilds and may (but not necessarily) get a lower quality product as a result, but I think that they can be confident that the store will still be there the next week.

IMHO the scaremongering that cheaper prices means more risky choices just can't be substantiated without knowing all the details of the business model a villa owner is running, actually I suspect it just serves to put people off risking a villa rental direct from the owner, preferring instead to have the guarantees that a hotel or a ABTA backed booking has to offer.

In my experience, every villa we have booked has been exactly what we expected, every owner I have dealt with has honest and solvent and every holiday has been fantastic, even though some have been cheaper than others.

As long as you are prepared to do a bit of homework, ask a few questions and prepare to trust someone I don't see why everyone can't be confident of the same experiences, regardless of budget.