overtaking on the inside lane in the u k [Archive] - Orlando Villas

agod

01-08-2004, 16:26

Yes, as a professional truck driver for many years driving artics all over the continent and here,clocking up many hudreds of thousands of miles, I feel passionately about this, its the unskilled drivers sitting in the overtaking lanes that cause the chaos, they effectivally reduce a three lane carriageway to one lane by sitting on the outside, if you brought in the American way it would reduce accidents, because it would free up all the lanes, and stop people tailgating one another, all they needed to do is change lanes, in fact as most of us know, its so frustrating sitting on the outside waiting for someone to move over that undertaking is now common place, and a law that cannot be enforced, should be changed to reflect current conditions, Just dont start me on the speed limit either!!.

Alan

Nostromo

01-08-2004, 18:03

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by blott
I hate motorways in the UK but I quite like driving on Interstates in the US, mainly becuase drivers are a lot more polite (yeah, well everywhere has exceptions but mainly) and lane conscious.
[/quote]

That I agree with 100%. In the US, even very long drives - often a necessity because of the distances involved - are seldom stressful and the biggest problem one has is nodding off. In the UK, motorway driving is stressful at the best of times and a total nightmare at worst. No wonder Chris Rea called the M25 "The Road to Hell".

tezz7628

01-08-2004, 18:41

is it not the chicken and egg situation

create a better driving atmosphere and you'd get better drivers surely, and better drivers give you a better driving atmosphere :)

blott

i'd dont think it would work all over uk, maybe?, but certainly dual carriageways and motorways

linda.s

01-08-2004, 22:26

As I do a huge amount of motorway driving, I had to vote yes.......... Arrogant centre lane hoggers drive me absolutely wild! They cause more accidents than anyone..... However, I believe that "undertaking" is now allowed by law in the UK, if the inside lane is clear, and the offending driver in the outside lane can't or won't move over. I am sure you aren't allowed to keep lane changing to beat everyone, but if you are in the middle lane for example, and the outside lane stops, then you can keep going. Also, I can't wait for the new middle lane hogger law that's due soon. Police will be able to pull over offenders, and not a moment too soon in my opinion!

Magical Dreams

01-08-2004, 23:53

I voted yes, Sometimes it is un-avoidable when you get some burk in the outside lane on his/her sunday drive doing 50mph.

Either make it possible to pass either side or give us the authority to cattle-prod them!!

agod

02-08-2004, 04:24

Linda S

I believe that law refers to one way steets and slow moving traffic, the trouble is there are fewer and fewer polce out there patrolling it all, what you need is signs telling people to keep to the left hand lanes, and lots of them, before you all jump down my throat, please do not come back and say looking at signs is dangerous.

Alan

linda.s

02-08-2004, 04:54

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by agod
Linda S

I believe that law refers to one way steets and slow moving traffic, the trouble is there are fewer and fewer polce out there patrolling it all, what you need is signs telling people to keep to the left hand lanes, and lots of them, before you all jump down my throat, please do not come back and say looking at signs is dangerous.

Alan
[/quote]

Thanks Alan, I wasn't sure if my interpretation was correct or not!! I agree, there should be lots of signs. I just get so fed up of moving to overtake from the inside lane, through the middle lane, then to the outside lane, just to go past some idiot who is sitting in the middle........... Bah!! [msnmad]

Robert5988

02-08-2004, 05:05

For all our frustration with UK motoring we have one of the lowest accident and casualty rates in the world.

Despite the more orderly driving style and slower motorway speeds, the USA has far more accidents and deaths/injuries than the UK; by any way you wish to measure the statistics – per vehicle – per million miles driven.

Leave a gap of more than a couple of vehicle lengths between the car in front and you will be undertaken and ‘cut up’. That’s why tailgating is endemic in the USA.

We should not let our love affair with Florida blind us to facts.

bridget

02-08-2004, 14:30

I vote no because there would be more accidents as there's so much more traffic on our roads and a lot of people just don't drive safely.

It's such a shame... driving in Florida is a wonderful experience but driving on the UK motorways fills me with utter dread. [V]

Angua

02-08-2004, 15:16

I voted yes. Having driven extensively on US and UK motorways, I find it much easier to get from A to B in the US. Yes, cars are moving around you and will move into the lane in front of you as they gain access/egress to the Highway but if you're driving at a steady speed and leaving a safe gap, that's how it's supposed to work. Our US friends told us that it's etiquette to keep to the inside lane in the US too but undertaking gives you the opportunity to get past those who do not follow the rules.

The only thing that worries me is that it's not going to solve the problem of those dastardly "middle-lane hogs" causing accidents. Generally, drivers who hog the middle lane do so because they are oblivous to other vehicles around them. You're supposed to know where the cars are around you and what is coming up ahead and from behind, not just stare ahead with blinkers on. That attitude is not going to change if we are allowed to undertake them, they are just going to be more likely to hit you when they finally decide they need the inside lane to exit the motorway. [msnmad]

Nostromo

02-08-2004, 15:26

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Angua

The only thing that worries me is that it's not going to solve the problem of those dastardly "middle-lane hogs" causing accidents. Generally, drivers who hog the middle lane do so because they are oblivous to other vehicles around them. [/quote]

You're right, and that's why I voted NO. I agree that it is the lousy middle lane hoggers who cause a lot of M-way accidents; allowing overtaking on both sides will simply give them a licence to continue their practice. Then with people passing them on either side might increase the liklihod of accidents if any driver (the hogger or one of the legitimate passers) decides to change lanes unexpectedly, something that UK drivers do more often than the US ones.

Also, we have to bear in mind the greater than average number of lorries on the UK Motorways. These quite rightly occupy the left lane for the most part and usually use the middle lane only to overtake another HGV or a very slow vehicle. If a fast car tries to get among them to overtake someone in the middle lane, it will only add to the risk.

Robert5988

02-08-2004, 15:37

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Our US friends told us that it's etiquette to keep to the inside lane in the US too but undertaking gives you the opportunity to get past those who do not follow the rules.
[/quote]

Angua,
It is not just etiquette, it is also the law; albeit widely ignored and virtually never enforced.

I would not disagree that "it is easier to get from A to B" although I suspect much of that reason is the lower speed differentials in America.

When a queue of cars in the outside lane are waiting their turn to pass a slower vehicle, a car undertakes and muscles his way into the queue. Result - cars in the queue close up to prevent this.

Allowing undertaking in the UK can only result in more accidents.

Angua

02-08-2004, 17:24

Sorry boys, I have to disagree with you both.

Firstly, Robert, thanks for confirming that US law for me. I did think it was law to keep to the inside lane but wasn't sure so didn't like to misquote.

I'm not talking about speed demons getting their kicks from weaving in an out of traffic. That happens in the UK now anyway! I'm talking about moving between lanes and around slower moving vehicles in a safe and sensible manner to allow free-flowing traffic. Yes there are idiots on the Motorways but there are far more "middle-lane" hoggers holding up traffic and clogging up the motorways for everyone.

The speed differential is 5mph and I haven't experienced many cars sticking to that on US Highways, just like the UK, so I don't think that's what makes it easier to get about.

Tailgating happens on UK roads now and I don't see how it can increase by introducing undertaking. If all drivers are using all lanes fully then you're not likely to get long queues of frustrated drivers in one lane, except for heavy traffic and road works obviously. Tailgating is an attitude problem and as I hear on the radio today, that's something that may be addressed separately(something about CCTV cameras picking up tailgaters and fining them accordingly). I think too many people see their cars as extentions of themselves and see it as their personal space being invaded rather than keep a safe distance.

As to Lorries in the inside lane, how do you think that we all get on and off the motorway? We have to move among Lorries and other slower moving traffic to get in and out of the inside lane. And what about those Lorry Drivers? My Dad-in-law, Brother-in law and his girlfriend who are artic drivers are frequently stuck in the inside lane because they can't undertake that middle-lane hogger and haven't got quite enough speed to overtake so have to slow down instead, causing a knock-on effect.

There's lots of arguments for and against and it's a discussion that could go on forever (as this post has![:I])but since you both replied quoting me directly, I thought it only polite to respond.[msnsmile2] Feel free to send the next volley! I love discussions.

linda.s

02-08-2004, 17:54

I agree with Angue, sorry boys!

The sooner the middle lane hogger law is bought into practice the better for me. I know that there is a lack of traffic cops about to enforce it, but CCTV camera's are in place on most motorways now, so they should be used for this purpose.

I also feel that the bigger lorries should be allowed to undertake the middle laners. Some of those trusks have 18 gears or more, and to continually slow down and spped up is pretty hard work! However, I must say that I do occasionally voice frustration in the car when you get a lorry overtaking another slow moving vehicle, on a dual carriageway, but the overtaking vehicle is only doing 0.5mph more than the inside lane. Can take ages!

Tailgating is also prevailent everywhere. If you try to leave a decent gap from the car in front, someone just jumps in... It's almost impossible to drive safely on the motorways, with the middle laners, tailgaters, and just stupid idiots who believe that the road is theirs, and theirs alone!

On a final note, a friend of mine's father is one of those who will sit in the outside lane, doing 70, and refuses to move over. He will not accept that he is wrong, as he is doing the maximum speed limit, and therefore if someone wants to overtake him, then they are breaking the law! [msnmad]

Nostromo

02-08-2004, 18:27

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by linda.s

On a final note, a friend of mine's father is one of those who will sit in the outside lane, doing 70, and refuses to move over. He will not accept that he is wrong, as he is doing the maximum speed limit, and therefore if someone wants to overtake him, then they are breaking the law! [msnmad]
[/quote]

It is those sort of people who drive me mad with their devious selfishness. No offence, but I hope that your friend's father learns a VERY HARD lesson. [msnmad]

linda.s

02-08-2004, 18:56

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Nostromo
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by linda.s

On a final note, a friend of mine's father is one of those who will sit in the outside lane, doing 70, and refuses to move over. He will not accept that he is wrong, as he is doing the maximum speed limit, and therefore if someone wants to overtake him, then they are breaking the law! [msnmad]
[/quote]

It is those sort of people who drive me mad with their devious selfishness. No offence, but I hope that your friend's father learns a VERY HARD lesson. [msnmad]
[/quote]

I absolutely agree!!! We had a furious row about it! Both his daughter and I, plus several other family members, and he completely couldn't see the wrong in it! In theory, he is right, as no-one should be doing over 70, but in practice, and by law, he should be in the inside lane, and let others get on with whatever they want to! Makes my blood boil every time I think about it!

agod

02-08-2004, 22:00

Come on girls!!]:D stick up for the Truckers, To answer your question about trucks only overtaking at 5mph, its not the truckers fault, what comes into play is the engine size'es between them, the weight of the load they are both carrying, and it might be uphill favouring the lightly loaded truck, and then on a downhill stretch it could favour the heavier truck, plus I believe nowadays they have limiters set at 56 mph, and are only allowed in lanes one and two, to Lindas friends father give him a copy of the Highway code and tell him that its him who is breaking the law, and speeders should be left to the police to deal with[:D

Just remeber when you are stuck behind that truck, he could be delivering your new 3 peice suite or your petrol, or all those goodies to your supermarket.

Alan

Robert5988

02-08-2004, 22:32

Linda/Angua,
With respect, by slating the middle lane hoggers etc etc you are simply defining the problem - and we would all agree with you.

I don't think allowing undertaking is the solution, essentially for the reasons Nostromo outlined' and also it will give licence to those who enjoy weaving in and out to make up a car length or so.

Angua

02-08-2004, 23:16

Robert
I'm sorry but I'm obviously not understanding what you're trying to get at.

I posted that I thought that legalising undertaking was a good idea as it would mean that all the lanes could be used but that I thought that middle-lane hoggers would still travel on in their own little world.

Both you and Nostromo then replied, quoting my post, saying you disagreed and giving the reasons for it, bringing up the points of speed, tailgating and lorries . I then replied with my opinion of those specific points.

Of course we are referring to middle lane hoggers, they are the main factor for drivers to consider undertaking so we would be referring to them in this thread.

I understand that you don't agree with undertaking because of cars weaving in and out and I respect that opinion. However, I do agree with undertaking because I see it as vehicles safely changing lane to get to their destination at their own pace not that dictated by someone sitting in a lane because they can't be bothered to move over.

Let's agree to disagree.[msnsmile2]

[amended my bad grammar[:0]]

agod

02-08-2004, 23:31

Roberts argument, simply dissappears,[msncry] because if undertaking was allowed, the weavers would be legal, and as you rightly point out, the lane hoggers, would also become legal, so your friend sitting in the outside lane would also be legal, that would really get his goat seeing everyone zip past him on the inside, It works well in the USA, like most things, thats why we go there, and most drivers today have experience of continental or foriegn driving, its a nonsense to say it would cause more accidents, it would free up the roads and probaly stop them, especially if they put the speed limit up too.[msnwink]

Alan

linda.s

02-08-2004, 23:45

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by agod
Come on girls!!]:D stick up for the Truckers, To answer your question about trucks only overtaking at 5mph, its not the truckers fault, what comes into play is the engine size'es between them, the weight of the load they are both carrying, and it might be uphill favouring the lightly loaded truck, and then on a downhill stretch it could favour the heavier truck, plus I believe nowadays they have limiters set at 56 mph, and are only allowed in lanes one and two, to Lindas friends father give him a copy of the Highway code and tell him that its him who is breaking the law, and speeders should be left to the police to deal with[:D

Just remeber when you are stuck behind that truck, he could be delivering your new 3 peice suite or your petrol, or all those goodies to your supermarket.

Alan
[/quote]

I know Alan!! Sorry, but I wasn't talking about motorways, as hopefully there is the oputside lane to use to overtake them, I was only talking about dual carriageways, and when they really are crawling along, not 5mph, but 0.5mph! I know it takes time, and the limiters don;t help, but it can be frustrating, that all - sorry if I caused any offence.

Angua, I agree with you on all counts. Yes there is a possibility that this law will allow people to zip in and out of queues, but then the law can compensate for this with careless or dangerous driving. Where safe to do so, undertaking should be allowed.........

Nostromo

03-08-2004, 00:06

There are other issues involved with this 'undertaking' business which we have to consider.

- US Interstates can have exits on both sides, although admittedly they are predominantly on the right ('slow') side. True right sided exits do not exist in the UK and the occasional Motorway fork (eg around Heathrow) is between two eqivalent roads.

- As things stand, most HGV drivers adhere to the M-Way etiquette in staying to the left lane and moving to the middle lane only to overtake. But if undertaking becomes legal, some of them might be tempted to use the middle lane more often, thinking "If that car coming up behind me and flashing his lights wants to overtake, he can damn well use the left lane!" in a situation where the right lane is already busy with faster cars.

Whether you like it or not, UK drivers tend to be more individualistic than thier American counterparts and allowing 'undertaking' can only lead to more problems and .....if you'll pardon the pun....on the long run create more work for the undertaker.

agod

03-08-2004, 00:17

Nostromo

"As things stand, most HGV drivers adhere to the M-Way etiquette in staying to the left lane and moving to the middle lane only to overtake. But if undertaking becomes legal, some of them might be tempted to use the middle lane more often, thinking "If that car coming up behind me and flashing his lights wants to overtake, he can damn well use the left lane!" in a situation where the right lane is already busy with faster cars"

You have just condridicted yourself, if overtaking on any side is legal, you do not have to come up behind someone flashing your lights and getting all up tight, you simple move over to the lane that is free and get on with it just like the truck would do, or not do because it is legal for the truck to sit in the middle or outer lane like everyone else, I am sorry but you are just not getting it[msnwink]

Alan

Angua

03-08-2004, 00:35

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Nostromo
...
- US Interstates can have exits on both sides, although admittedly they are predominantly on the right ('slow') side. True right sided exits do not exist in the UK and the occasional Motorway fork (eg around Heathrow) is between two eqivalent roads....[/quote]
Admittedly, our Motorways don't have true right-sided exits but our dual carriageways have. There are loads of "fast" lane exits on the main route into Norfolk and according to the law both lanes have to slow down while other drivers are using these exits. I don't think that it is unreasonable or unsafe for a vehicle to pass on the left in these circumstances and find it ridiculous that we're not allowed to do so.

tezz7628

03-08-2004, 00:39

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Nostromo
There are other issues involved with this 'undertaking' business which we have to consider.

- US Interstates can have exits on both sides,

i know of that one on i4 going to universal studios if its still there :)

"If that car coming up behind me and flashing his lights wants to overtake, he can damn well use the left lane!" in a situation where the right lane is already busy with faster cars.

[/quote]

just asking really
why can they not just join the faster cars and pass the lorry on the right?? :)

Nielsen

03-08-2004, 01:59

I voted no as well - it is a simple fact that most accidents on a motorway happen when people are changing lanes. And how much faster would you actually get to where you are going? Even on a long run I bet it is no more than 10 mins.....

TOM

Robert5988

03-08-2004, 02:12

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote: Roberts argument, simply dissappears, because if undertaking was allowed, the weavers would be legal, and as you rightly point out, the lane hoggers, would also become legal, so your friend sitting in the outside lane would also be legal, that would really get his goat seeing everyone zip past him on the inside, It works well in the USA, like most things, thats why we go there, and most drivers today have experience of continental or foriegn driving, its a nonsense to say it would cause more accidents, it would free up the roads and probaly stop them, especially if they put the speed limit up too.
[/quote]
Agod,
You, with others, use the ‘middle lane hogger’ or even fast lane hogger as the justification for undertaking. If undertaking was to deal solely with that menace I wouldn’t have a problem – but in practice I believe it would create greater problems.

The normal scenario encountered both in UK, but particularly in America where I spend several months each year, occurs when I am in a line of vehicles waiting to pass a slower vehicle(who is not doing anything wrong). There is no ‘clear lane’ as you put it. Someone inevitably ‘undertakes’ several vehicles and dives into the braking space between 2 vehicles. 2 second rule? 0.2 second rule is the way many try to combat these menaces.

My argument only disappears if you consider the ‘weavers’ have a positive effect on safety – which I don’t!

As for undertaking working well in USA(where as stated previously it is technically illegal) if you search the web you will find it a major cause of road rage. Also if it works well, why is the accident and casualty rate higher than UK? – despite generally lower speeds.

Whilst I accept we can all have an opinion on the relative merits of undertaking, I really don’t know what qualifies you to dismiss as “nonsense” the argument that it would cause more accidents. Perhaps you could enlighten us.

sunseeker

03-08-2004, 03:12

Is it illeagal to pass on the inside? As i understood it as long as you are staying in the same lane you can pass on either side, its weaving from lane to lane thats illeagal. Otherwise the inside lane would hardly ever move when there was a sniff of heavy traffic.
The police refer to Centre Lane Only Drivers as CLODS :D

Dave

agod

03-08-2004, 03:23

I just dont beleive statistics, of any kind I am afriad, you can quote them to the cows come home, they are all worked to give the answer you want, as for qualifications, I used to drive over 180.0000 klms per year in my driving days, all over the continent,and this country, for over 10 years, in a right hand drive vehicle, on right hand drive roads in a 38 ton 18 Metre artic, I was a Member of the chartered Institute of Transport, and I hold a certificate of professional competence, in transport management, Will that do
[msnwink]

You keep talking about undertaking, its not, its the ability to travel on any lane you like, legally.

Alan

Robert5988

03-08-2004, 04:54

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote: I just dont beleive statistics, of any kind I am afriad, you can quote them to the cows come home, they are all worked to give the answer you want, as for qualifications, I used to drive over 180.0000 klms per year in my driving days, all over the continent,and this country, for over 10 years, in a right hand drive vehicle, on right hand drive roads in a 38 ton 18 Metre artic, I was a Member of the chartered Institute of Transport, and I hold a certificate of professional competence, in transport management, Will that do

You keep talking about undertaking, its not, its the ability to travel on any lane you like, legally.
[/quote]
Quote 1. "I just dont beleive statistics, of any kind I am afriad," - no of course you wouldn’t!

Quote 2. "I used to drive over 180.0000 klms per year in my driving days, all over the continent,and this country, for over 10 years, in a right hand drive vehicle, on right hand drive roads in a 38 ton 18 Metre artic" – No statistics there then!![msnwink]

So if I understand you correctly, being a long distance lorry driver qualifies you to dismiss counter opinions as 'nonsense'. I expect that reasoning is well up to standard for the learned members of the chartered Institute of Transport.

Angua

03-08-2004, 11:51

"Ding-Ding, Gentlemen return to your corners!"

What started out as an interesting discussion is turning into little more than a slanging match. More entertaining than Eastenders it may be but it kind of spoils the fun for the rest of us who enjoy exchanging views. [msnwink]

To continue the boxing theme...

"Gloves on, Gentlemen"

[msnsmile2][msnsmile2][msnsmile2]

Angua

03-08-2004, 12:28

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by sunseeker
Is it illeagal to pass on the inside? As i understood it as long as you are staying in the same lane you can pass on either side, its weaving from lane to lane thats illeagal. Otherwise the inside lane would hardly ever move when there was a sniff of heavy traffic.
The police refer to Centre Lane Only Drivers as CLODS :D

Dave
[/quote]

Hi, Dave.

It's only legal to use the left hand lane to overtake in congested traffic when all lanes are travelling at roughly the same speed. You may "undertake" to keep up with traffic in your lane. You're right about the weaving. I like the CLODS quote!

Which means that if you are driving along a Dual Carriageway and a vehicle in the right-hand lane slows to use a right-hand exit, you have to slow down too

Also, if you're travelling along in the wee hours, like I do frequently, and to see cars in the middle lane - it is the law that you move from the inside lane to the outside lane to overtake them. And when they suddenly come back to reality and spot a set of lights moving across the lanes behind them, they panic and swerve all over the road. That's happened several times to me, I think they must think that my Xenons are part of a vehicle from "Close Encounters of the Third Kind".[msnsmile2]

I hadn't thought until I read Tom's (Nielson) post that perhaps many cars are not changing lanes because they are scared to do so (and again, I don't mean weaving). That worries me more because it gives me the impression that there are more drivers on the Motorways who are not simply blinkered but are actually incompetant.[msnscared]

I think we would all agree that some form of Advanced Motorway driving exam should be obligatory? Obviously this would have to be after your main exam, since you can't drive on the motorway with a Provisional licence but you can immediately after you've passed, when you've got more confidence than you have skill!

agod

03-08-2004, 14:05

Yeh your right angua,

Robert you have your opinions, and I have mine, I have already supplied you with (DM) statistics on another subject in this forum, and I would be happy to do it again, but we are going of thread and the other posters here are right that we should not do that.

lets just shake hands and agree to disagree.

Alan

floridadreamvilla.co.uk

03-08-2004, 15:42

I'm going to be locking this thread shortly as it's going off topic [msnsad]

tezz7628

04-08-2004, 14:25

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by linda.s
As I do a huge amount of motorway driving, I had to vote yes.......... Arrogant centre lane hoggers drive me absolutely wild! They cause more accidents than anyone..... <span style="color:red">However, I believe that "undertaking" is now allowed by law </span id="red">in the UK, if the inside lane is clear, and the offending driver in the outside lane can't or won't move over. I am sure you aren't allowed to keep lane changing to beat everyone, but if you are in the middle lane for example, and the outside lane stops, then you can keep going. Also, I can't wait for the new middle lane hogger law that's due soon. Police will be able to pull over offenders, and not a moment too soon in my opinion!
[/quote]

i also thought this was only on one way streets

i've heard the speed cameras were being equipped to take no. plates on the move, but had not heard about the middle lane hogger rule, but having said that, i heard something on the news this morning :)

jolliffee

04-08-2004, 14:27

Hi guys; A bit of a flame on long post I’m afraid.
I'm not a truck driver, who I have the up most respect for; but I do hate the CoC’s (Centre Lane Owners Club). I have & do drive all over Europe, America and Asia on long business trips so I am one of the hated business car owners that make a living by using the roads to visit my clients, and I don’t have a second for any one that thinks we have enough roads in the UK we have some of the most dangerous and unsafe highways in the world and its time we sorted this out.

After some research and speaking with the Police in the UK and USA I have found that it is illegal to switch lanes to under take (switch lane undertake switch back), in California they are really hot on this and do like people to stay in their chosen lane, round LA they even have heavy studs marking the lanes to discourage you from lane swapping. A couple of pals have been fined for lane swapping

The UK has nearly the same law, if the traffic is moving in Q’s then you can pass by the outer Q without fear of prosecution but start lots of lane swapping and you are outside the law. Anyone that drives on the M25 regularly will know this is true, since if you’re not against the barrier (far RH lane) then you will be in a Q and pass those in the Lane to the right of you.

It is the two lane motorways and Duel carriageways that cause me the most grief; time and again there is a really slow vehicle on the inside, some one pulls out to overtake but does not accelerate, and often does not pull back in so we have this stupid line of cars in the outside lane waiting to get past the slow vehicle on the outside who over took the slow vehicle on the inside 10 miles back. Drive the A1 in Yorkshire & the M11 from or to Cambridge and you’ll know what I mean. This is where the Q system is not used and we should use it more; I don’t think we need a law change just public education or is it another Government anti car policy to slow us all down?

On most of the German dual carriageways it is illegal for trucks to overtake so we don’t have the problem of them causing long tail backs, contrast this with France but more in Belgium where on dual carriageways the tail back can be a couple of miles long.

The police have the responsibility for the prosecution of speeders and no one else has the responsibility to enforce (ignoring cameras) the speed limit, you should pull into the inside lane after overtaking if you are going slower than the traffic behind, they will be past you long before you reach the next vehicle you need to overtake.

And I’m not going anywhere near caravans and the perceived need for everyone to overtake them even though they are a mile away!
Flame Off!

From someone earning a crust by using the road network; 5 week with my aircon boken too, fixed now though.

PS there are right hand exits on A3 between Hindhead & Guilford ditto other direction & the A1 had some though they are being sorted also lots in Germany and Belgium.
[msnsmile2][msnsmile2]

tezz7628

04-08-2004, 14:35

sorry

whats a flame? i'm assuming its a long speech :)

jolliffee

04-08-2004, 14:43

Hi Tezz
Flame on means it’s a subject that we are passionate about or it is a bit of a hot button; you know don’t press that button, sort of thing. Used often in forums where the topics are more likely to create opinions that differ.[msncool]

Robert5988

04-08-2004, 16:30

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Hi guys; A bit of a flame on long post I’m afraid.
I'm not a truck driver, who I have the up most respect for; but I do hate the CoC’s (Centre Lane Owners Club). I have & do drive all over Europe, America and Asia on long business trips so I am one of the hated business car owners that make a living by using the roads to visit my clients, and I don’t have a second for any one that thinks we have enough roads in the UK we have some of the most dangerous and unsafe highways in the world and its time we sorted this out.

After some research and speaking with the Police in the UK and USA I have found that it is illegal to switch lanes to under take (switch lane undertake switch back), in California they are really hot on this and do like people to stay in their chosen lane, round LA they even have heavy studs marking the lanes to discourage you from lane swapping. A couple of pals have been fined for lane swapping

The UK has nearly the same law, if the traffic is moving in Q’s then you can pass by the outer Q without fear of prosecution but start lots of lane swapping and you are outside the law. Anyone that drives on the M25 regularly will know this is true, since if you’re not against the barrier (far RH lane) then you will be in a Q and pass those in the Lane to the right of you.

It is the two lane motorways and Duel carriageways that cause me the most grief; time and again there is a really slow vehicle on the inside, some one pulls out to overtake but does not accelerate, and often does not pull back in so we have this stupid line of cars in the outside lane waiting to get past the slow vehicle on the outside who over took the slow vehicle on the inside 10 miles back. Drive the A1 in Yorkshire & the M11 from or to Cambridge and you’ll know what I mean. This is where the Q system is not used and we should use it more; I don’t think we need a law change just public education or is it another Government anti car policy to slow us all down?

On most of the German dual carriageways it is illegal for trucks to overtake so we don’t have the problem of them causing long tail backs, contrast this with France but more in Belgium where on dual carriageways the tail back can be a couple of miles long.

The police have the responsibility for the prosecution of speeders and no one else has the responsibility to enforce (ignoring cameras) the speed limit, you should pull into the inside lane after overtaking if you are going slower than the traffic behind, they will be past you long before you reach the next vehicle you need to overtake.

And I’m not going anywhere near caravans and the perceived need for everyone to overtake them even though they are a mile away!
Flame Off!

From someone earning a crust by using the road network; 5 week with my aircon boken too, fixed now though.

PS there are right hand exits on A3 between Hindhead & Guilford ditto other direction & the A1 had some though they are being sorted also lots in Germany and Belgiam.
[/quote]

Dave,
Excellent post. I particularly agree that public education is the key to the problem that we all acknowledge exists.

Just one comment on “in the UK we have some of the most dangerous and unsafe highways in the world and its time we sorted this out” . I know my American friends are terrified when they drive here, and more so in some other European countries. It is the huge speed differentials between cars on the same road that worries them. However that said it is an undeniable fact that we have some of the safest roads in the world and much safer than the USA. Obviously the reasons for different accident rates are complex but I wonder if the more relaxed driving style in the USA leads to a lower level of concentration?

jolliffee

04-08-2004, 17:18

I hope we don’t get this thread closed?

First off the US drivers mostly engage a none aggressive defensive driving technique; when I was in a fairly large car crash in Austin Texas the driver at fault (not me!) had to do a months defensive driving course, run by the state, instead of getting points; a great idea we should copy. Have you noticed how they (in the US) indicate a lot more, and are possibly considerate so you can notice those that aren’t; that’s how the Police spot the badies they (the aggressive drivers) stand out like a sore thumb.

I have to attend a defensive driving course every 2 years as part of my company car insurance; I am also a member of the Institute of advanced drivers both have a similar ethos. Namely think you are a 40 ton truck, think ahead, keep moving and don’t hit anything, treat all drivers as an accident waiting to happen etc.. I feel for the truck drivers sometimes when they are cut up by the cars.

I really don’t want to go down the road(chuckle) of why I think our roads are dangerous, I specifically mean the roads and not the drivers. Though that adds to it.

As a thought; how many people die on the UK roads vs. the investment into good roads vs. the number killed on the railway and the reaction each time with the cost involved. I think the balance is wrong.

Nostromo

04-08-2004, 18:27

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Robert5988 However that said it is an undeniable fact that we have some of the safest roads in the world and much safer than the USA. Obviously the reasons for different accident rates are complex but I wonder if the more relaxed driving style in the USA leads to a lower level of concentration?

[/quote]

Statistics can be put across in different ways to suit particular viewpoints. I am not disputing that UK roads are as safe as others in the West, but the fact remains that driving in the UK, particularly on the motorways, is both stressful and dreadful. I do a lot of miles and have never been able to enjoy myself while driving in the UK except in remote country areas of Scotland or similar. I shudder at the prospect of having to drive even 100 miles somewhere and am invariably hyperstressed at the end of it. In the USA on the other hand, I've done 400+ miles in a day with only a couple of short breaks without being affected much. Whether you like it or not, I have met others who feel the same way.

Robert5988

04-08-2004, 22:12

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:I shudder at the prospect of having to drive even 100 miles somewhere and am invariably hyperstressed at the end of it. In the USA on the other hand, I've done 400+ miles in a day with only a couple of short breaks without being affected much. Whether you like it or not, I have met others who feel the same way.[/quote]

As I have said before I feel the same way about driving in the USA - it is much more relaxing.

Angua

04-08-2004, 23:49

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by jolliffee
"...It is the two lane motorways and Duel carriageways that cause me the most grief; time and again there is a really slow vehicle on the inside, some one pulls out to overtake but does not accelerate, and often does not pull back in so we have this stupid line of cars in the outside lane waiting to get past Drive the A1 in Yorkshire & the M11 from or to Cambridge and you’ll know what I mean. This is where the Q system is not used and we should use it more; I don’t think we need a law change just public education or is it another Government anti car policy to slow us all down?..."
[/quote]

Could you explain how the Police say that the Q system works on a dual carriageway or two-lane motorway, please?[msnsmile]

I've always gone by the Highway Code which says..."Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake." (Although this only refers to Motorways. The Code doesn't make any reference about being allowed to undertake on a dual carriageway.)

I've always taken this to mean that you are only allowed to "undertake" by keeping in the same lane so I'm confused on how you can get past "the slow vehicle on the outside who over took the slow vehicle on the inside 10 miles back" without changing lanes and therefore breaking the law (as I thought).

jolliffee

05-08-2004, 00:40

Hello Anqua.
The key point in your quote is: “traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right; In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right”

So if you stay in your left lane maintain your speed you are not breaking the law, even though the traffic to your right is going slower or may be stopped (happens all day long on the M25 and other heavly congested A roads): When you come to the slower vehicle indicate pull out overtake pull back into the LH lane; ONE NEEDS TO BE ALERT!

Undertaking is when someone moves from the RH lane to the LH lane goes past people in the RH lane and pulls back into the RH lane, per your quote: "Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake"

Hope this helped a little.[msnsmile2]

Angua

05-08-2004, 12:32

Hi, Dave.

Thanks for the clarification but I was referring specifically to your comment that ...

"It is the two lane motorways and Duel carriageways that cause me the most grief; time and again there is a really slow vehicle on the inside, some one pulls out to overtake but does not accelerate, and often does not pull back in so we have this stupid line of cars in the outside lane waiting to get past the slow vehicle on the outside who over took the slow vehicle on the inside 10 miles back. Drive the A1 in Yorkshire & the M11 from or to Cambridge and you’ll know what I mean. This is where the Q system is not used and we should use it more..."

I just don't understand how you can use the "Q system" to get past that slow moving vehicle in the right hand lane.

The Highway Code refers to congested traffic conditions on the motorway and keeping up with traffic in [u]your</u> lane. Imagine road-works (not too hard if you drive anywhere on our roads[}:)]), all lanes are virtually stationary or slow-moving. The vehicles in the right-hand lane move ahead a little then slow/stop while the traffic in the left-hand moves ahead a little then slows/stops. If you are in that left-hand lane which starts moving ahead while the right hand lane is slower or stationary, then "you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

However, the Code is very specific that ..."[u]Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake.</u>" so you must not move into a left-hand lane to undertake, whether the driver considers it weaving or not and whether the driver intends to stay in the left-hand lane or not and you must not pass on the left unless it is in congested traffic in all lanes.

Obviously, if everyone followed the Code and did as it instructs..."Return to the left-hand lane once you have overtaken all the vehicles or if you are delaying traffic behind you." there would be fewer problems on the motorways/dual carriageways. However, if you are overtaking traffic in the right-hand lane and come across a slower moving vehicle in your lane then, according the The Highway Code, you have no choice but to queue up behind them, you can not change lanes to pass on the left, even if the left-hand lane is clear for miles and even if it is the law that you keep to the left! ...And if you are in the left-hand lane with a clear road ahead of you and come up to a slower moving car in the right-hand lane with a clear road ahead of him, you still can't pass on the left. It's not congested traffic, it's just someone daydreaming!

It's strange that the Police have told you one thing and the Highway Code says another. Perhaps, if there is a Traffic Police Officer who is a Forum member, we could get some specific laws and perhaps give their name or quote those laws if we try to pass, on the left, that slow-moving right-hand car.....and get stopped by their colleagues.

Personally I don't think I'd risk it, I don't think "but the Forum told me I could do it" would be a valid defence. [msnwink] I'd rather wait until they pass a law that you may pass on the left in all circumstances as long as the manoeuvre is performed safely and with consideration to other drivers.[msnsmile2]

Robert5988

05-08-2004, 17:00

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Perhaps, if there is a Traffic Police Officer who is a Forum member, we could get some specific laws and perhaps give their name or quote those laws if we try to pass, on the left, that slow-moving right-hand car.....and get stopped by their colleagues.
[/quote]

Angua,
This has been discussed many times on a motoring forum I visit - to which several police officers contribute.

Your interpretation is absolutely correct. Much as the problem is the motorists who refuse to move over, it is not legale to 'undertake' them under conditions where traffic is flowing freely.
i.e even where the car is driving at, say, 50mph in the outside lane of a motorway. The concensus of opinion is that undertaking would create more problems than it would solve.

jolliffee

05-08-2004, 23:41

Hi Angua, I think we may be having a violent agreement?

Actually I don’t think I was advocating undertaking but a better use of the roads that already exist; maybe a slight back-pedal on my part but my default positioning for traffic jamming is to go down the outside. I will only filter on the inside when it offers a clear advantage to forward progress without an excessive compromise to my safety.

Lane hogging and undertaking:
These are pet hates of mine; I include the two together, because the former often causes the latter. The lane hoggers are most commonly seen on the motorways and dual carriageways, and basically consist of two types. First, there's the people who hog the outside lane, not moving over into a gap to allow the (large and growing) queue of traffic behind to pass, usually because they want to overtake the car 400 yards ahead that they're catching up with at the rate of about 50 yards a minute. This is not popular with most drivers, particularly impatient ones, who then think this gives them the right to change lanes and undertake the offending lane hogger. This in itself, of course, defeats the object somewhat, since it actually prevents the lane hogger from moving over, because people are undertaking!
Second, there's the type who hog the middle lane. Do they have some phobia about the left lane? Who knows. Either way, this causes problems for people travelling down the centre lane that are being overtaken themselves, since they are unable to move right to overtake the lane hogger, and must slow down. I often see people undertaking these lane hoggers to make some kind of point, but again, that just prevents them moving over. Another popular, though very dangerous,' is to overtake them and then swerve across their path into the left lane, but this isn't really sensible either, especially when you catch up with that slow moving lorry a few hundred yards ahead, and have to pull back out, thus looking very silly.

Well, that's a great deal of ranting done and off my chest. I think there is definitely a need to raise the quality of driving on the roads, and whilst the government seems keen on raising the difficulty of the driving test to make it harder to get on the road in the first place, this does seem to be missing the point because there are far too many dangerous drivers that are already on the roads. Still, at the moment, there is no real incentive for people to join organisations such as the IAM - most insurance companies seem to ignore it, and there are only a few perks for being a member - to increase driving standards through further training/education, nor is there sufficient covert enforcement to catch the dangerous drivers that plague the roads. What enforcement there is seems to be damage limitation, rather than damage prevention.
Since I have now completed a circular post,I think I'm done on this subject.
[msnscared]

Angua

06-08-2004, 01:15

That's cool, Dave. I wasn't trying to have a pop at you, honest.:D I agree with your views entirely, having driven on a few motorways myself;)(although I don't undertake in any circumstance (apart from traffic congestion), just get annoyed[}:)]).

I'm quite sad actually, I thoroughly enjoy driving..... even on Motorways (I've already explained on other threads that I'm quite mad!) and have quite a few years of driving experience under my belt so do know my way around the rules and regs, both legal and just plain courtesy. I'm also get very animated on the topic even though I'm only a woman so apologies for my vigour.

I was only trying to clarify the position for other readers of this thread as your first post gave the impression that the Police had told you that it was legal to undertake in that kind of situation, which I knew was not in accordance with the Highway Code. Also, Robert complimented you on your excellant post which confused me somewhat since Robert is very much anti-undertaking. With your Defensive Driving and Advanced Driver qualifications and Robert's clear knowledge of driving statistics lending authority, it made it seem that undertaking in those circumstances was quite legal which (unfortunately!) it is not.

Isn't it funny that this is such an emotive subject? I don't know anyone who sits on the fence with this topic and it certainly makes for an interesting discussion, eh?. [msnsmile2] I'm signing off this one now too, to give some other poor so-and-so a chance!![msnwink]

fiona

06-08-2004, 02:44

Well this has been very entertaining reading chaps. I must say though, living as we do between the M4, M40, M3 and M25 motorways (too much excitement in one lifetime[msnwink]) you would think that undertaking was already the law, in fact I thought it had been passed after recent trips.

I find if I am trawling along at 70 on the inside lane, it is often v difficult to get out into the middle lane to overtake, and with so many people tailgating it is impossible to move with ease from one lane to another.

It seems to me that people drive with alot less courtesy than they used to, and the young women are now as rude and aggressive as the young men (mass generalisation here, but you get the idea).

Who is it who will let you out? Lorry drivers bless their cotton socks[msnsmile2].

linda.s

06-08-2004, 03:31

I think driving has got more agressive naturally..... With the additional vehicles on the road, more congestion etc, it's almost compulsory to jump into a gap to overtake. There is little choice unless you want to stay in the inside lane for the whole journey. I not only get frustrated with lane hoggers and undertakers, but those who jump into the gap I am trying to leave in front of me. Makes me a tailgater! I have often had a car indicate to overtake, and pull over into my lane without my consent, and with maybe only a couple of metres space between me and their bumper! Now I'm tailgating, even though I was trying to leave a gap! So, I try to drop back a bit, and someone else leaps in! I spend many hours travelling the M25, M1, M6, M4, M40 etc etc and the experience is becoming more nerveracking every time. And I enjoy driving! My car has done nearly 40k in the last 10 months, most on M roads. In my opinion, we need more lanes!