View Full Version : School fines
Hi all me my hubby and 3 children will be in florida in september for 3 weeks and ive been told by the local council that im going to be fined £300 for taking kids out of school, I know this sounds irresponsible but i dont care, and cant wait to be in sunny florida
FraserLynn
05-07-2009, 14:27
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by steelo
Hi all me my hubby and 3 children will be in florida in september for 3 weeks and ive been told by the local council that im going to be fined £300 for taking kids out of school, I know this sounds irresponsible but i dont care, and cant wait to be in sunny florida
[/quote]
This is always a difficult balance and I have to admit we have missed the odd week tagged onto a half term. Personally, I think that whilst education is a fundamental part of childhood, it is not everything and some good quality family time is just as important. Sounds like you are going to anyway, but have fun.
On the 'education' front...
When our girls were younger, we took them on holiday to Florida during term time - it's the only way we could afford to go there in those days! Successfully argued that the trip was educational. Certainly, a visit to Epcot, going around the lands collecting stamps & autographs in their 'passports' gave them a unique insight into other cultures & was a great talking-point when they returned to school....
They realized that maths has its uses when they tried to convert prices from $ to £ - previously a 'booring' subject !
sunseeker
05-07-2009, 16:48
Fines are just another tax imho, last year we took all our holidays during school breaks. the school on the other hand kept my children out of the class room for 10 days, 5 inset days and a week in paris. the trip to paris may well be argued that it was educational, but did they really learn anything about paris they couldnt have leart in the classroom?? this year we will probably pay the local authority tax and still save money by taking them out of school. i very much doubt that my children will suffer from it either.
Dave
sammibabe
05-07-2009, 18:11
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by FraserLynn
Originally posted by steelo
Hi all me my hubby and 3 children will be in florida in september for 3 weeks and ive been told by the local council that im going to be fined £300 for taking kids out of school, I know this sounds irresponsible but i dont care, and cant wait to be in sunny florida
This is always a difficult balance and I have to admit we have missed the odd week tagged onto a half term. Personally, I think that whilst education is a fundamental part of childhood, it is not everything and some good quality family time is just as important. Sounds like you are going to anyway, but have fun.
Absolutely agree with you. It is really important. A friend of mine works in the department at a secondary school that deals with this. From my understanding they have all sorts of things they have to do before you can actually be fined and by the time it gets to that the children are back in school. However things may have changed as it is some time since we had the conversation about it. When I took my children out of school last year (authorised) in September I had a letter in half term as their attendance percentages were down. If we had waited til Christmas it would have been better for their percentages but more detremenatal to their education as there were exams in January. The trouble with the LEA is they hit on the easy targets but leave the parents/children that really need to be dealt with[msnmad]
When our youngest was at our local grammar school his headmaster was fine with parents taking children out of school and was of the opinion education was not confined to a classroom and most subjects could be studied whilst on holiday. It did not harm his education as he has just graduated with a 1st in MChem from a red brick university.
My brother in law is a teacher and it amuses me when I find out his school has had a training day during term time which resulted in the teachers going to Cite Europe for some 'group bonding'.
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by steelo
Hi all me my hubby and 3 children will be in florida in september for 3 weeks and ive been told by the local council that im going to be fined £300 for taking kids out of school, I know this sounds irresponsible but i dont care, and cant wait to be in sunny florida
[/quote]
Refuse to pay it and have your day in court
Ask the council how much they fine parents who dont send there kids to school or let them run riot in the school and watch their faces.
It's a joke the way councils are obsessed with things like this, but then again it is easier to pick on an easy target rather than a tough one I suppose.
Councils not worth the paper they are given to use in the littlest room!!!!
we r going to florida for 3 weeks in oct taking my daughter out of school for 2 weeks as the 1/2 term falls in we had to get permission for the time of and was granted as my husband works in agriculture soo can not take school hols in summer and any way it would b to hot and wet then so this is the best time to go anyway the fines are bad for people but the savings outway the fine
when taking out from school
sunseeker
05-07-2009, 23:10
where does the money from the fine go ? why is it that some schools fine and others dont ? is it an offence to take the children on holiday during term time ? when did the schools take up ownership of our children that we have to ask their permission to take them ? as you can tell i get slightly annoyed about this procedure. its very difficult and costly to me if i take my leave during the school holidays.
Dave
My guess is the fine goes towards covering the shortfall in the local council's budget as they probably did not get a large enough grant from the government. This leaves them in a bind as they are only allowed to raise council tax each year by a certain amount or they are penalised by the same government which has left them short of money in the first place.
sammibabe
06-07-2009, 00:32
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by sunseeker
where does the money from the fine go ? why is it that some schools fine and others dont ? is it an offence to take the children on holiday during term time ? when did the schools take up ownership of our children that we have to ask their permission to take them ? as you can tell i get slightly annoyed about this procedure. its very difficult and costly to me if i take my leave during the school holidays.
Dave
[/quote]
Schools have different policies regarding this so it is a lottery depending on that (my friend's children are at a primary school with a policy of not giving authorisation for holiday!)It is not a given right for schools to allow holiday in the term time but a lot allow up to 2 weeks. I think the law is that children have to be educated and most of us choose schools. But if you decided to teach them yourself you don't have this problem. If you can afford private school you have longer holidays so can probably get some cheaper holidays when they have broken up but before the state schools are off so it is probably more of an issue for state schools. As you can see I too get quite wound up by all of this[msnmad]
steph_goodrum
06-07-2009, 02:06
What is frustrating is that as the law stands youu are allowed to take your children out of school for 10 days during term time, with the schools permission, to accompany the family on holiday. So instead of being a level playing field for all parents it is down to the discretion of the school and ultimately the personal feelings of head teacher or governors. So you often have the situation where one childs school says its ok and another will fine the parent.
sammibabe
06-07-2009, 02:58
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by steph_goodrum
What is frustrating is that as the law stands youu are allowed to take your children out of school for 10 days during term time, with the schools permission, to accompany the family on holiday. So instead of being a level playing field for all parents it is down to the discretion of the school and ultimately the personal feelings of head teacher or governors. So you often have the situation where one childs school says its ok and another will fine the parent.
[/quote]
It should be standardised across the board. A friend had 2 children in different schools (1 boys school and 1 girls school)1 gave permission, 1 didn't! It's a lottery as so many things are in this country[msnmad]
Have had a look at the LEA policy for Devon (where we are)and they can issue a penalty notice for holiday without authorisation so things have changed. This instead of dealing with regular truancy and lateness etc.
I think its absolutely disgusting, I have been told this morning that i will be fined £50.00 per parent per child so thats a £300 fine on its way, Im really thinking about refusing to pay it but not sure how the court process works, if i lose how much will i be liable to pay? This seems to be a big subject on the tv today and knowing my luck if i did go to court they would probably make an example out of me,
flyrr100
06-07-2009, 17:15
I so agree with Homor. Refuse to pay. Take the school to court.
Not a good idea - they are likely to take you to court and then court costs could be awarded against you.
Better to get someone to call in on the Monday and say the children have gone down with something eg chicken pox one year, measles the next etc:D
In some companies it is not possible for everyone to have a holiday during the school holidays - are these people supposed to go without. The government keeps saying quality family time is important - so I would have thought a family holiday should fall into this bracket.
I suppose the principle is to ensure the teaching of the rest of the class is not held back - if a topic is important, a teacher may reorganise so they could be included.
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Jill
My brother in law is a teacher and it amuses me when I find out his school has had a training day during term time which resulted in the teachers going to Cite Europe for some 'group bonding'.
[/quote]
I wish our Inset Days were fun like going to France and bonding. I've just got in from one .... planning to incorporate yet more changes to the curriculum... now perhaps if the government didn't make so many changes staff wouldn't need so many Inset days.
sunseeker
06-07-2009, 23:21
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by taylona
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Jill
My brother in law is a teacher and it amuses me when I find out his school has had a training day during term time which resulted in the teachers going to Cite Europe for some 'group bonding'.
[/quote]
I wish our Inset Days were fun like going to France and bonding. I've just got in from one .... planning to incorporate yet more changes to the curriculum... now perhaps if the government didn't make so many changes staff wouldn't need so many Inset days.
[/quote]
are you telling me that teachers only get 20 days holiday like the majority of britains work force?? I know for a fact that they dont, as 2 teacher friends of mine are off to scotland for 4 weeks during the summer break. perhaps the government could allocate a week for teacher training during this long break.
Dave
I have considerable experience in a professional capacity of dealing with this issue.
Some of this sounds rather strange to me.
Your original post states "ive been told by the local council that im going to be fined £300". How come the council has got involved ? Who do you mean by "the council" ? - which specific department ? What has gone on between you and the school ? I've never heard of any council with regulations such as "£50 per parent per child". Have you seen any of this stuff in writing ? Is it publicly available on the council's website ?
If this is a one-off trip and your kids are regular, punctual attenders at school it's highly unusual for it to go as far as the local council - families requesting time off for kids is a common occurrence in schools and the school will have a policy to deal with such matters. It's puzzling to me.
All that said, schools do tend to take a more lenient view of time off in June / July at the end of an academic year (which is more "dead time" than the start of a new academic year in September) and missing three weeks of a new school year will have an impact.
Having just retired from working in a school office, I can tell you that it is the Head Teacher who authorises a term time holiday, if the Head refuses to authorise the holiday it is passed to the Education Welfare Officer who initiates the fine proccess and yes the fine is £50 per child per parent. In our school there was only once the Head did not authorise the holiday. I would not recommend saying your child was ill as othe children have a nasty habit of saying "John's not sick Miss he's gone on his holidays".
The first time we went to Florida it was April and my daughter was 11 and in her 1st year of Secondary School, the Head authorised the holiday with no problem, my son was 5 and in Primary and his very snooty Head said it would have to be unauthorised and would go on his record.
Robert5988
07-07-2009, 01:53
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:I suppose the principle is to ensure the teaching of the rest of the class is not held back [/quote]
My children went to private schools(my employer paid most of the fees) and it was a written condition – strictly enforced - that under no circumstances would pupils be given time off to go on holiday during term time. If parents tried to insist, the child would have to leave the school.
The reason was exactly as stated in the quote above; it was not only the child’s education that suffered, but it disrupted the rest of the class.
Hi lyn, Thankyou for putting this fact straight, I can and again will confirm that i have been told that i will be getting a £50 fine per parent per child,and i will recieve this fine within 6 weeks on return, Also as for the coment on what kind of relationship i have with my childrens schooling it is in fact a very good one, my children attend a good strong catholic school, As for the remark on what attendance my children have that also is very good at 97% 95/% and a 93% and although they are not 100% not many children these days actually do achieve this,And i quote not many, thats not to say none at all, Also edlea you wished to know what council it was well its medway council, the department involved is education welfare officer, and how dare you imply that something has gone on between me and my childrens school,for someone who states that they have considerable experience in a professional capacity in dealing with this issue you obviously dont really seem to know an awful lot on this subject,
Now once again i will repeat what i first came on here to say and that is im getting a fine i dont give a damn and me and my family are very excited about our holiday to sunny florida which to me is well worth a £300 fine:D
sunseeker
07-07-2009, 02:04
Go on his record! How will this affect you and your son? Sorry to ask but my sons school adopted this policy last year and we took our hols during school breaks, this year we will be taking him out of school as we have done previously because it is more convenient and cost effective to us.
Dave
florida4sun
07-07-2009, 02:13
I do not see how it holds the class back. My two have been absent for around 12 weeks in the last 12 months. I do not see the classes in turmoil either.<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Robert5988
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:I suppose the principle is to ensure the teaching of the rest of the class is not held back [/quote] My children went to private schools(my employer paid most of the fees) and it was a written condition – strictly enforced - that under no circumstances would pupils be given time off to go on holiday during term time. If parents tried to insist, the child would have to leave the school.
The reason was exactly as stated in the quote above; it was not only the child’s education that suffered, but it disrupted the rest of the class.[/quote]
sammibabe
07-07-2009, 02:22
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Robert5988
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:I suppose the principle is to ensure the teaching of the rest of the class is not held back [/quote] My children went to private schools(my employer paid most of the fees) and it was a written condition – strictly enforced - that under no circumstances would pupils be given time off to go on holiday during term time. If parents tried to insist, the child would have to leave the school.
The reason was exactly as stated in the quote above; it was not only the child’s education that suffered, but it disrupted the rest of the class.[/quote]With private education you pay your money (or your employer does) and make your choice. Also the holidays are longer so you can go outside of most other people breaking up or going back. State schools you rarely have the choice about which school (parental choice is something of a joke nationwide if our area is anything to go by)
We try to incorporate some of our holiday into school holiday time but cannot afford to do it all in school holiday time. So because of our family financial constraints (the same as a lot of other families) should my children not go on family holidays abroad. As parents we see the teachers to find out what has been missed and the children do extra work at home to cath up (my older children sort this out on their own now as this is part of the return from holiday routine)
Steelo - have a fantastic holiday, loved going in September, so quiet in the parks[msncool]
Hi Sammibabe, Thankyou for your comments, Im sure we will have a fantastic time,:D
Robert5988
07-07-2009, 02:54
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:I do not see how it holds the class back. My two have been absent for around 12 weeks in the last 12 months. I do not see the classes in turmoil either.[/quote]Well if you google 'holidays in term time policy' it seems most schools and Education Authorities would not agree with you! A typical quote is: <blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:‘The change in policy is a response to the growing number of parents requesting permission to take their children on holiday during term-time. These requests happen all year round. If children miss lessons, even just for a week or two, they risk falling behind and this can have a knock-on effect on their exam results and their whole futures. Having children missing at various times during the term also has an unsettling effect on classes.’[/quote] Obviously it makes sense financially to go on holiday during term time, and I am certainly not making any criticism of parents who exercise that option.
I am merely pointing out that there are valid reasons for Education Authorities strongly discouraging the practice.
Katys Grandad
07-07-2009, 11:20
We all bring up our children in the way we see fit and don't easily take criticism of it. The OP has made it clear that she 'doesn't care' about the fine or what the LEA think.
Fair enough - but in the circumstances I'm struggling to see what the 'topic' is here.
steph_goodrum
07-07-2009, 11:41
Steelo
My duaghter went to Rochetser Grammar and we were fortuante on the couple of occasions when we took her during term time in the younger years (first time was 4 weeks after she started so we were expecting to be read the riot act - although it was a few years ago now). Even the head teacher wrote on her report that she had such positive comments from the teachers about how well she she had made up the work. I'm of the impression, if parents are capable of making life or death decisions about their children in terms of medical isuues , when unfortunately the need arise, they are certainly capable of making informed decisions about whether their children can miss some school time.
Single parents often do not have the finances to be able to afford the prices during school hols and, particularly if it is the absent parent taking them away the time spent with that parent away from the everyday is more valuable to them than what they MAY miss if they are away.
Thankyou for your coment Katysgrandad, I really did not want to upset folk on here, and you are 100% right that everyone should have their say, I do respect what the education authorities say when they quote about taking children out of school during exam time which is something i would never do, I was merely saying im very excited about my holiday and the £300 fine is well worth it, I also take note that your struggling to see what the topic is and im sure it states school fines so i suppose this is the topic, as when i first wrote this i had not long been told i was getting a school fine and was rather angry about this and just wanted to get other folk opinions, I also made sure that when i posted this topic i made sure i put it in the off topic section of the forum, And as im off to florida this september with having purchased tickets and car hire from here i suppose i do have some sort of right to be on here posting topics and voicing my opinion :D
Katys Grandad
07-07-2009, 12:34
My point is that you appeared to be seeking other people's views on something you explicitly said you didn't care about. Just seemed odd to me, that's all.
I'm sure you'll enjoy your holiday whatever other people's view might be.[msnsmile2]
Hi Katysgrandad, Yes you are correct in quoting that i do not care about being fined, but i do think its good to get other peoples insight into things, this being fined lark is all new to me so i suppose i was hoping maybe someone on here has been through something similar and might be able to advise, Also folk on here have raised questions that i did not think to the authorities ask when questioning my fine if i choose to do so, So i do take your point that i was seeking other peoples views, But ODD i think is a strong word to use i thought these forums were all about chatting about the different aspects of going on holiday florida in particular and thought my topic fell into this catagory, Like i said i never wanted to upset anyone just wanted some views and opinions, Thankyou for your comments and im sure me and my family will have a fab time in sunny florida :D
Appledore
07-07-2009, 19:01
I'd take your children out of school - pay the fee and you'll be saving more than £300.00 on flights and make sure you take the kids to Sea World. They'll learn so much more than sitting in a class room listening to a teacher droan on. We got talking to a couple of the staff and learnt things I never even thought about.
Did you know that it was a Native American that came up with the idea of sun glasses? He wondered why polar bears didn't go blind from the reflection of the sun off of the snow.
He found they have a film over their eyes which acts to reflect. _Now you wouldn't have learnt that sitting in a classroom with the rain pouring down outside.
Have a wonderful holiday!
Elaine
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Robert5988
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:I suppose the principle is to ensure the teaching of the rest of the class is not held back [/quote] My children went to private schools(my employer paid most of the fees) and it was a written condition – strictly enforced - that under no circumstances would pupils be given time off to go on holiday during term time. If parents tried to insist, the child would have to leave the school.
The reason was exactly as stated in the quote above; it was not only the child’s education that suffered, but it disrupted the rest of the class.[/quote]Hi Robert. I've just taken the plunge and am sending my two youngest to private schools from September. Do you know is the "strict enforcement" common in private schools? I notice they get much longer holidays in ay case.
Thankyou one and all, Debate finishes here [laugh][laugh]
Robert5988
07-07-2009, 20:51
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Hi Robert. I've just taken the plunge and am sending my two youngest to private schools from September. Do you know is the "strict enforcement" common in private schools? I notice they get much longer holidays in ay case.[/quote]
I can only speak for the boarding schools my children attended. In both the Prep school and senior schools it was a very strict ruling. They worked on Sat mornings(which justified the longer holidays) and it was enough of a battle to get them away on a Friday evening for a special occasion.
My daughter teaches at a top Public school and she tells me that it will not be condoned, although exceptions have been made after A level exams have been taken, but she is unaware of any pupil ever having taken more than a week even at that period.
I suppose to a certain extent it depends on how well subscribed the school; those desperate for pupils might be prepared to be lax on this ruling.
However if you are paying £hundreds a week for their education, it doesn't make much sense to effectively 'lose' that money.
Katys Grandad
07-07-2009, 21:20
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Robert5988
However if you are paying £hundreds a week for their education, it doesn't make much sense to effectively 'lose' that money.[/quote]Very true. Having struggled to pay school fees for my children I wouldn't have dreamed of taking them out - and wouldn't have been allowed to anyway. I'd equate it to paying for medical insurance and not turning up for my operation!
Our two children went to a private school where there was never any problem in taking them out of school for holidays as long as it was not done too often in a year. Their opinion was that you could learn from a holiday as well as at school. They were encouraged to write about their holiday and to give a talk to the class when they came back, and we always took a limited amount of work with us for them to do. My husband was not able to take his holidays during school holiday periods so they would not have had a holiday otherwise. A wise teacher can use these holiday breaks to good advantage. Although this was some years ago, we still have a live contact with the same school and know that this is still the policy.
Andrena
Hi Andrena, I think that is a very good policy, I do believe children can learn so much when they travel, [msnsmile2]
I agree I think holidays can be an education for children
We take our grandchildren to Florida out of school term & not had a problem with the schools
Carol
ncmurray
23-08-2009, 19:16
Tonish, I think that is is a very usual practice in private schools to allow no time off for holidays during school time. You should probably check with the school that you are thinking of sending your children to to see what their policy is.
On the whole, I don't think it is a great idea to take your children out of school for extended periods of time, but if it is not a regular occurence, or does not have too much of an impact on their education, then it is acceptable, and probably even desirable.
Steelo, I hope you and your family have an absolutely fabulous time in Florida. Try not to worry about the fine too much, as I am sure your children will be able to make up for lost time.[msnsmile]
Nuala
Hi
Just reading the thread on term time holidays, I have three children 1 in Junior School 1 in Secondary and 1 at College, we are going to Orlando on the 10th October and it is the first holiday we have taken in 3 years, I duly grovelled to the above schools, the Juniors have said ok, the college have said ok BUT the Secondary school have said no all 3 schools/colleges are in the same Cluster Group and catchment area but the secondary school have taken the decision to say no - I have since spoken to the Head Teacher and have accepted a HUGE home learning pack which my daughter has to complete and return by the end of the holiday or we will also be liable for a fine. I know we shouldn't realy take the chldren out of school during term time to family holidays but due to the cost of holidays in July and August, term time is the only way we can afford to go away and it is only every 3 or 4 years[msnmad] - there we go my rant on this subject over !:(
Hi wendy, Im at the point now where i think its only a £50.00 fine it would cost a hell off a lot more to go in the holidays, Enjoy your time and worry about it when you get home:D Anyhow it usually takes roughly 2 months to even be issued with the fine so if you start putting around £5 a week away in a pot youll have it all ready to pay.:D
Hi Rebecca
I have already got my daughter doing the home learning pack and if she doesnt get it finished before we go on our holiday then so be it we will take the consequences, I do feel bad but it is not like we go on holiday every year. You and your family have a reaaly good holiday too.
Steelo the fine is £50 per parent so if there is a mum & a dad that is £100 per child that is fined. I agree that if your only talking a fine for 1 child it is worth it.
Opps yes your right lyn it is £50 per parent per child, still cheaper than going in the July and august month, :D
We also have this scenario now, I have just wrote to the School and asked for 2 weeks out of school for my 15 year old son, only to be told we'll be fined £50 per child per parent. Its ridiculous if you go in the School holidays the holiday companies airlines etc sting you and the queues in the parks are too long for the climate. Problem being we have 2 children to take out of School, (my son who will be sitting his GCSE's on return from our holiday and my step son who is 9, can't see no real harm in taking a 9 year old out of School) so its going to be a £200 fine. I reckon the School's are in some kind of silent agreement with the holiday/airlines, its certainly not a win win situation. I am quite relieved to see the amount of posts on this subject at least I don't feel we are being victamised.
As for the fine I agree its a small price to pay on the whole when you weigh up the extra costs etc for taking them in holiday times.
After all the hassle with getting my waiver of ineligibility and now this im a at least confident the stress will be well worth it when we are sitting in our villa in March.
Hi
Just an update, my daughter has now finished the home learning pack, so we thought that apart from my son who has to do some essays for his A levels while we are way we thought the holiday would be school work free, but, no, the teachers of english, science and maths at the secondary school have now decided to give my daughter extra course work to take away with her to be completed while we are away, again we don't have any choice or the fines will be implemented, they have you all ways don't they.:([}:)][msnmad] Although people will say it is our choice to take the children out of school we should pay the consequences, but once every 3 years isn't excessive, I don't think so anyway!
We have also been offered this option but think the School will still implement the fine just to make a point. Sure my son is going to be delighted to be doing course work whilst on holiday! Never mind as they say you pay your money you take your choice!
We are going to Florida in Feb and need to take 3 children out of school (3 different schools). Now my niece (10 yrs) has been given approval for the 7 days off. My son (8 yrs) has also been given approval but my other son (6 years) not so simple! We have to go for an interview tomorrow at 3:20pm with the headmistress. The letter we got went on and on about how bad it is to take the kids out of school. He's 6 years old and will probably learn more during the 2 weeks in Florida than he would being at school for a week (we are going away across half term next Feb).
We'll see what happens tomorrow night but i am prepared for the battle. Wish me luck!!![msnscared]
ShirleyD
05-10-2009, 12:56
Good luck Garry. Go in fighting, them that you and your son are looking at maps of where you are going so your holiday will be an educational experience as well as a chance for the family to have some precious time together. It makes me so cross reading this thread. Thankfully, mine are almost out of the system now, but I really don't believe my kids were harmed by having time off, they were rarely ill and were always ahead with work.
We are taking 2Grand daughters out of school in Nov to go to florida
2different schools no talk of fines yet
Carol
Dads_Taxi
05-10-2009, 13:14
Garry, hopefully you won't need to be involved in a battle. The school at which I am a governor has recently had to introduce this "interview" system for parents wishing to take holidays during term time. I'm sure you'll find that the discussion will centre around the issue that a very small minority of parents keep their child/children out of school for the most trivial of matters, and the effect that does have on a child's education. Parents of children who are seldom, or never, absent from school will be treated sympathetically, but the interview still needs to take place so the system is seen to be for all parents, not just those who habitually keep their children away from school.
In reply to Netty68, above: "I reckon the School's are in some kind of silent agreement with the holiday/airlines", this most certainly is not the case. The Government is constantly on the Local Authorities' backs to reduce absenteeism, and in turn the Local Authorities give headteachers grief about the absence figures for their schools. Schools are compared against similar schools in their area, and Local Authorities are put into a League Table for the whole country to show which areas are achieving best and worst school attendance. I'm no education professional, but I reckon all the effort put into increasing school attendance is NOT aimed at those of us who would like to take advantage of better flight prices, but those parents who allow their kids to roam feral around our shopping centres.
That said, I see from reading above that some Headteachers ARE enforcing the rules, and refusing to allow leave during term time, and thus the local authority (not the school, they just report you to the Local Authority Educational Welfare Officer) are imposing the fines. In those cases you have my sympathy, if not that of your Headteacher. I can only agree with most of the other comments above, that the educational benefits of a trip to the USA are many-fold.
Hope it goes/went well today Garry, let us know.
Thanks very much.
I hope it is going to be a constructive discussion. The school in question and possibly all schools have a rule that if the full 10 day allowance has been taken the previous year then it WILL be denied, no questions. We went to Florida last year and took them out for 5 days so we're kind of in the clear although it might be seen that we are becoming habitual leave takers! This is what i think will be focus of the discussions.
My points are that a) we are not using the full 10 days but spreading it across a holiday b) Jake is 6 years old, he's not just about to sit his GCSE's! c) We are a family of 6 who couldn't possibly afford to go in holiday time and finally d) The only other holiday which would allow us to go for 2 weeks wholly within a holiday is the summer one and i'm not prepared to take 2 babies to Florida during the hottest part of the year.
All the above may not make any difference whatsoever but they are my reasons for wanting to take my children out of school. His absence record is very very good. I do think that the school is being looked at by OFSTED regarding attendance so either the headmistress has to push the firm line to show she is trying or....... she genuinely could say no tomorrow!!??!!
Dads_Taxi
05-10-2009, 13:32
I think all your points are valid (although from experience, school staff never have sympathy for the point about not being able to afford holidays during school holidays!)
Constructive discussion is the path to take, I wish you well.
Now, I'd better get started on my long list of jobs for today. Cheers.
Garry
I wish you loads of luck today, keep us updated
lafifille
05-10-2009, 18:11
I've been reading this for a while, and I just have to post, although I'm not exactly concerned. This fine system is probably the most amazing and ridiculous thing I've ever heard about...As a mother of two who took them off school in June to go to the US, almost 2 weeks off for my youngest (11), I deeply sympathize....
The schools never raised an eyebrow when I told them (months in advance) that the kids would be gone on June 19th and would miss the last days of the term. My youngest's teacher was actually quite enthusiastic and asked for e-mails to read to the class. She keeps asking now for the photo album, which I haven't finished yet (OK, not even really started[msnembarrased]). Both headmasters agreed that travelling is greatly educational. Of course I had the advantage of emphasizing the language training (they'd better be good in English class now [msnwink]). But even without that it really wouldn't have been a problem.
Now, there's not much they could have done to prevent us from taking our kids out of school. Even though there are legal means, they wouldn't be put into action as our kids go to school regularly and that time was the exception. They are busy enough with those families who don't keep their offsprings in the system so well, and I'm not sure they are so efficient with those anyway.
I've worked in Education, and I'm sure a fine system would ONLY penalize those families who are just trying to take a well deserved vacation out of peak prices season, and whose children attend school regularly the rest of the time. How many of those "not-so-concerned with school" families actually DO pay the fines? If it's by any means close to what we have in this country, I'd say not many.
Any time I've needed my kids out of school for some reason, I've just planned accordingly and done it. Not very often, and with much respect with the school institution, and without any impact on my children's progression. I can't believe your educational system is so different that it couldn't work this way for you too.
I'll add my best wishes for your interview Gary. Keep your cool, although you probably just want to scream at them "the kid is only 6 years old, for God's sake"!!!!! I was just thinking that the "exposure to a foreign language" point can actually work for you too, there are so many spanish speaking persons in Florida :D!
mfairhurst
05-10-2009, 19:41
What happened to the travel agents promise to make the cost of holiday the same all year was that just pie in the sky as most thing are here in UK .
We had the same situation a long time ago and it has never got solved so years on we are in the same boat .
Some people has lots of money so money is no problem and then again others have not ,As in life it is the same thing in lots of things .
Rant over but we have been there and feel sorry for lots of you hope you can solve it this time in 2009/2010.
MAUREEN
www.onlinefloridavillas.com/villas/1683.aspx
So we went to the meeting last night after school although not before we had to go home and change. [msnmad]
Me and Melanie had walked round to school to pick up Jake when the heavens absolutely opened![msnoo] We got him and ran round the other side of school getting drenched. Eventually we got round to reception and stood there, soaking wet and told the receptionist we were there for a meeting with the head teacher![msnembarrased] She went off to see if she was free but in the meantime i had decided that there was no way i could go sit in the head teachers office and have a serious conversation whilst being soaked to the skin. We left and drove home to get changed (after walking 400 yards in the pouring rain to the car).
So.... we returned to school and got sat down with the head teacher. She started off by saying that the holiday had been approved [msnsmile2](perhaps she knew what was coming if we started to discuss the matter). We were obviously pleased with this and explained that we hadn't taken the decision lightly and we had weighed up all the options before deciding on the dates. She did say that since we had taken time off last year and now this year that if we were to apply next year then it would probably be turned down. If it wasn't turned down then we could expect a visit from an EWO (education welfare officer) who would come to our house. This i'm sure was to warn us off applying again next year (not that we're planning on doing it next year). She understood the difficulties but did say that children should be in school and whilst a holiday can be educational, it is the process of actually being in school and in the routine that they miss out on.
So all in all a happy ending but with a warning not to keep doing it. My honest opinion is that it would get approved in further years and they are just trying to put people off doing it. I don't blame them for doing that.
Thanks for your wishes and that's one more box ticked with the planning for February. [msncool]
Hi Garry
I am so pleased for you and that is one stress you can forget about and enjoy your holiday, we are taking a load of school books with us when we go at the weekend, but if it doesn't get done in Florida there is always half term.
What about the days that the school closes for 'in service training' the children are not being taught then!!
Andrena
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Andrena
What about the days that the school closes for 'in service training' the children are not being taught then!!
Andrena
[/quote]
INSET days are in addition to the standard 190 teaching days in a school year, so don't really count.
We have other random things such as Academic mentoring days where parents and pupils have to go in for 10 minutes and the rest of the day they are at home though - they are missed learning/teaching time.
Next September my sons school is closing for an addtional 8 days whilst they move into a brand new building. This would be ideal for a holiday, but unfortunately I have two other children in secondary schools and its not a great time to take them out at the start of the academic year.
The whole school holiday thing is a real bind, but I'm still going to be going to Florida long after they have left school - I just need to be patient - my time will come.
chrizzy100
24-10-2009, 04:12
Glad I never had this problem when my kids were in school..I took my daughter on a trip across America when she was 14...without being asked she did an essay on everything she saw...the teacher did a topic on Yellowstone and the wolves ...the reason we went to start with so I could check up on the wolves and write a piece for a Magazine..we also went to FL for Christmas every year before school ended never a problem..I think he did my kids a lot of good..it was always looked on as a good thing in my kids schools maybe we were just lucky
steph_goodrum
24-10-2009, 12:37
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Jo
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by Andrena
What about the days that the school closes for 'in service training' the children are not being taught then!!
Andrena
[/quote]
INSET days are in addition to the standard 190 teaching days in a school year, so don't really count.
We have other random things such as Academic mentoring days where parents and pupils have to go in for 10 minutes and the rest of the day they are at home though - they are missed learning/teaching time.
Next September my sons school is closing for an addtional 8 days whilst they move into a brand new building. This would be ideal for a holiday, but unfortunately I have two other children in secondary schools and its not a great time to take them out at the start of the academic year.
The whole school holiday thing is a real bind, but I'm still going to be going to Florida long after they have left school - I just need to be patient - my time will come.
[/quote]
My nephews school has one of the Academic mentoring days (they call them "Target setting") about a week after the beginnning of every term. Talk about a waste of time, as you say they have a 10 minute discussion and the rest of the day is free.
When my daughter was at grammar school, their target setting was done with the teacher at the front of the class (or just outside the classroom ) whilst the rest of the class got on with work.
I am glad our 2 boys are no longer at school so we do not have this problem. I do remember getting quite cross about the amount of homework that was set to be completed during the holidays. If you are not supposed to take them out of school during term time then you should leave their holidays free and clear so they do not feel they have time to go away.
Steelo, theres one other big advantage to taking your children on holiday (apart from the education), and this is the confidence they learn whilst travelling, around airports and being in different countries with different cultures and ways of life. We have taken our children out of school since they were in primary school. They are now in uni. They have no problem going places on their own and have even flown on their own from the ages of 14. Nothing fazes them. We have also taught them to be careful and streetwise and not to trust people whilst they are travelling who appear to want to be their friend etc. We have 2 incredibly well rounded, confident, well mannered, educated, children who often tell us that all the travelling they did helped them enormously with their confidence and their education. So maybe if head teachers sat down with parents who have taken their children out of school for many holidays in the past and talked to them about how these holidays helped shape their childrens lives (in a positive way) perhaps they would look on the subject of absenteeism from school for holidays in a more positive way. Gill
DLB-GOUROCK
25-10-2009, 18:08
I thought that this fines system was to stop the persistent truant throughout the whole year and to ensure that parent's were playing their role in ensuring that their children got an education. These are the "problem" families with delinquent children who cause problems in the communities that they stay.
I think that it is scandalous that schools are using it to penalise families who are using the time to good effect by exposing their children to the world at large and as Gill above gives the perfect example of how the experience can broaden a child's outlook and build their character.
Robert5988
25-10-2009, 21:09
Well it appears that taking children from school during term time assists with their education.
Their absence apparently has no disruptive effect on the rest of the class.
Seems that is yet another thing that the Government, Education Authorities and Teaching Unions have got wrong!
Is it only taking children on holiday that is advantageous for all concerned? Or do other forms of absence improve things for the child and the rest of the class? (as long as they do all their set homework)
sunseeker
26-10-2009, 23:11
That's quite a supercilious post, surely everbody is entitled to voice an opinion whether you agree with it or not.
Dave
Most teachers have children and their partners largely have non-teaching jobs. Just out of interest, how would you feel if teachers were allowed to take time out during the school term to go on holiday with their children?
DLB-GOUROCK
27-10-2009, 00:28
People who take on teaching jobs are aware of the terms of their employment and acknowledge that when they accept the post.
But wait, is this not why they have supply teachers to fill in when teachers are not at school.
Also how many school trips are organised by the teachers and they manage to take time out to accompany the pupils on an "educational" trip. In my day school cruises were the big thing and my sons went on a school sponsored outward bound trip and a trip to Barcelona.
In a utopian world everyone would adhere to the rules but in the real world there is give and take and if it is a learning experience for the child then it can't be all that bad.
Robert5988
27-10-2009, 01:20
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:That's quite a supercilious post, surely everbody is entitled to voice an opinion whether you agree with it or not.[/quote]I suggest 'supercilious' is better than disingenuous!
On a forum if I do not agree, am I not allowed to 'voice my opinion'?
I make no criticism of those who make the decision to take the children out during school time; but it is generally for, (understandable) financial reasons.
However the tone of some posts on here is that, absence from school has a beneficial effect for both the child and the rest of the class; and the Government, Educational authorities and Teaching unions are all mistaken. <blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Steelo, theres one other big advantage to taking your children on holiday (apart from the education), and this is the confidence they learn whilst travelling, around airports and being in different countries with different cultures and ways of life. We have taken our children out of school since they were in primary school. They are now in uni. They have no problem going places on their own and have even flown on their own from the ages of 14. Nothing fazes them. We have also taught them to be careful and streetwise and not to trust people whilst they are travelling who appear to want to be their friend etc. We have 2 incredibly well rounded, confident, well mannered, educated, children who often tell us that all the travelling they did helped them enormously with their confidence and their education. So maybe if head teachers sat down with parents who have taken their children out of school for many holidays in the past and talked to them about how these holidays helped shape their childrens lives (in a positive way) perhaps they would look on the subject of absenteeism from school for holidays in a more positive way. Gill[/quote]That confidence is only obtained if you travel during absence from school and not during the holidays?
My point David, is what about teacher's children have a learning experience with their parent/s on a holiday during term time? Everyone seems to be able to justify this for their own children, so if it is fine for every other child to have time out of school then why not a teacher's child? If it is such a valid educational experience that it justifies taking the child out of school, then surely this experience should be available to all children regardless of the job one of their parents' does? What about the single mother/father teacher who can't afford to pay for a holiday for the kids during the school holidays?
All of the arguments seem to boil down to one thing - money. Parents want to save money and let's face it when we all want to do something we will find any way that we can to justify doing it.
DLB-GOUROCK
27-10-2009, 01:41
Carla,
I think that we are agreeing.
Robert,
I believe that the Government, Educational authorities and Teaching unions have implemented a scheme to attempt to stop persistent truancy which occurs throughout the school term, i.e. one or two days every other week or worse. It is to put some responsibility on the parents of those children to make sure that they attend school. It should not be to penalise family holidays, but some schools appear to be applying these rules to this end.
In this day and age there should be a emphasis on the family bonding that is achieve during these times and the benefits that this brings in the later years. After all in these modern times fathers are allowed paternity leave to bond with their children and build a family unit which creates respect for elders and a balanced personality. This is not getting at single parents where equal emphasis should be placed on the bond between parent and child and every encouragement should be given to achieving this.
We always took our children out of school during September and it was not for financial reasons. We didn't go to Florida in those days, we went to Austria and we travelled by train and as my husband worked for British Rail we had free travel. But my husband always allowed his staff to have their holidays during July/August and he went later. After all not everyone can get off in an industry at the same time. However we had an extremely enlightened head teacher. She said that our children could learn as much on a foreign trip than they could at school and they always encouraged to give a talk to the rest of their class when they returned. When they went on to a private school again they had no problems and were commended for having a good all round knowledge. Travel can certainly be extremely educational and most parents do not take their children out for more than two weeks. These parents are not the ones that the school should be chasing, they should chase the parents who do not check up on whether their children are in school or not and who do not help their children with homework etc.
Andrena
Katys Grandad
27-10-2009, 06:30
This subject has been debated before on here and I still have the clear impression that that those in favour of taking holidays in term time are as much seeking to justify that decision to themselves as they are to others.
It's a dangerous game to offer advice to parents on how they should bring up their children and I'm certainly not seeking to do so but it seems to me that in most cases it's more about saving money than it is about broadening minds.
I took both my kids out of school last October to go to Florida. I have just had approval to do the same again next February for Florida again and i have chosen the dates for the following reasons:
3 children travelling all from different local councils hence slightly different easter breaks / some half term breaks.
I would not take my 20 month old and 3 month old to Florida during the hot summer months.
I limited the amount of absent days by using 1 week approved absence and 1 week half term holiday.
Not looking specifically to save money, not looking specifically to broaden minds and certainly not looking to justify it....... just doing the best for my family and that is Florida in the cooler months and using the least amount of school days to do that.
Katys Grandad
27-10-2009, 12:39
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by gpullan
Not looking specifically to save money, not looking specifically to broaden minds and certainly not looking to justify it....... just doing the best for my family and that is Florida in the cooler months and using the least amount of school days to do that.[/quote]I think that's my point really. For you, doing your best for your children is taking them out of school to go on holiday while, for others, taking them out of school is viewed differently.
Both approaches are perfectly legitimate and down to individual parents' discretion and that's how it should be. We all do our best but don't always agree what that is.
As a father of three and an ex school governor I can see both sides.
This Christmas I am taking all three out so they miss the last week of term. The reason this time is that it saves me over £400 per person on flights going a week earlier. When you have 5 adults to pay for that is over £2000, and is the difference between us having or not having a holiday this year.
If I was taking them somewhere totally different, and outside their normal experience I could certainly argue the educational value of it.
In the end I agree with Katys Grandad, we all try to do what is best for our kids in our own way.
Hi
Update time:
Still waiting to find out if the holiday has been authorised and if any fines are to be paid. We went in October! The BIG Home Learning pack was completed as was all the extra English and Science work we took with us and it was all handed in on my daughter's first day back at secondary school. The school has yet to make their decision. We are keeping everything crossed for an outcome in our favour.
We are out in Florida with 2grand daughters Age 6 & 9 One lives in York the other in Bromsgrove west midlands no problems with either schools Mothers wrote to the school governers & it was granted
Carol
Hi
Update time - finally, my daughter's holiday has been authorised this week with no fines - we came back on the 24th October!
normajohnp
04-01-2010, 23:24
Just wanted to ask if anyone has ever taken the 10 days that the school is allowed to give and used them for the two weeks before the end of term ( six weeks summer holidays ) Our school breaks up on the 23 July and I am looking to go out around the 10th. The Scottish schools usually break up a week earlier than us so if we go out around the 10th we should still be able to get a reasonable flight and then we will be able to have all the summer out in Florida.
I would not have thought it would make any difference when it comes to when during the year you request the 10 days. I remember when our 2 were at school there were several children taken out at the end of the year as they had finished their exams and for some years it was mainly intermural activities, eg theatre visits and sports days so no actual lessons were missed.
That should not be a problem as long there are no exams, which that late in the year is unlikely.
normajohnp
05-01-2010, 16:48
He is only 6 so did not think it would matter just wanted to know in advance if anyone had had a problem taken the two weeks before term end as long as he was back for the September start. Thank you for your replies.
alanandjude
05-01-2010, 23:51
When our son was 6, we requested 6 days at the beginning of December thinking that they would be winding down for Christmas and permission was denied!
normajohnp
06-01-2010, 23:35
Well school has OK`d the holidays but I have just received an email to say that our flights have changed! We were to fly on the 14th July from Newcastle to Amsterdam then on to Orlando, now we will not fly from Amsterdam until the next day. Anyone stayed overnight in Amsterdam airport area. There is just myself and grandson so do not want to leave the airport if possible.