View Full Version : ARRESTED? RECORD? HELP!!!
tomomac34
20-07-2005, 14:07
Around 12 months ago im ashamed to say i was arrested for being "drunk and disorderly" - the incident was trivial but meant i spent the night in a cell to sober up! / finger prints taken and DNA taken. then i had to pay a £80 fine [msnsad]
Now we have that cleared up i have an appointment for a M-1 Student visa at the U.S Embassy mid august
Do I tell them or not?!
The problem i face is that i need to fly out to america at the end of august to learn to fly (private pilots licence) - if i tell them about this inncident i almost certainly wont get the visa by then!
Also, when I got the fine from the police i asked them about this and they said it wasn't on record (but it must be if i had the finger prints taken!!)
Another thing - I'm good friends with a Police detective, He is very high up the ranks and he said not to bother telling them - he reconed that the fine i recieved was nothing more than a Parking ticket!
But i still have my doubts - does the u.s Embassy have acess to this information?? - the fear i have is if i dont declare it and they find out i might be refused for good!
Please shed your thoughts on this
Thanks in advance
Tom
EXTRA!!!
Ive just been on the local police site and this is the info they have on my fine:
<span style="color:blue">What are penalty notices for disorder?</span id="blue">
<span style="color:green">Penalty notices for disorder are a quick and easy way for officers to deal with low level anti-social and nuisance behaviour, such as littering, wasting police time, drunk and disorderly.
The notices are intended to free up police officers time from dealing with such behaviour (i.e. preparing statements and appearing at court). The officers will either give the offender a ticket at the scene of the incident or in some cases it will have to be in custody, it is still a more efficient method of dealing with the offender than charging them.
The notices can only be given if the offender agrees and then a fine of £50 or £80 depending on the offence will be issued. If the offender refuses then the case will proceed as normal to the courts or alternatively if the offender fails to pay the ticket then the fine will be increased and eventually a warrant will be issued.
</span id="green">
<span style="color:blue">I have been given a penalty notice for disorder, does that mean I have got a criminal conviction?</span id="blue">
<span style="color:green">No, by agreeing to have a penalty notice for disorder (PND) and paying the fine you will not receive a criminal conviction. Accepting and paying the fine is not an admission of guilt but discharges the possibility of the creation of a criminal record.
The fact that you have been given a PND will be recorded on the Police National Computer but it will not create a criminal record. The information is recorded for administrative purposes and also to establish if a person has had more than one PND.
If a criminal records check is carried out it does not automatically mean that the PND would be disclosed. However it could be referred to if the behaviour that lead to the PND was linked with the reason for the check.
</span id="green">
Robert5988
20-07-2005, 14:48
You have summed up your dilemma perfectly yourself.
Whilst there is no doubt that the US Embassy can gain access to police records, for obvious reasons they do not disclose what routine checks they make on Visa applicants.
As Visa applicants have to bring their own Memorandum of Conviction(s) for interview it is reasonable to assume(but it is an assumption) they do not routinely check for minor offences. Also, as you say, payment of a penalty notice means you have(technically) not been found guilty of an offence.
You may not have a conviction but you have been arrested so you need to check the criteria for an M-1 visa to see if this is mentioned I would have thought. It is mentioned for a visa waiver but other visas may differ.
Unfortunately none of us can know what info is available to the US Embassy and Immigration officials, as Robert has said - for obvious reasons, they don't disclose this.
Your offence was a minor misdemeanor.
Visa fraud is a serious felony.
How the offence is handled in the UK is of no interest to the US .. You have committed a crime and must declare it.
You may in the future want to emmigrate.. a lie told now will prevent that ..
Robert5988
21-07-2005, 23:56
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote: Your offence was a minor misdemeanor.
Visa fraud is a serious felony.
How the offence is handled in the UK is of no interest to the US .. You have committed a crime and must declare it.
You may in the future want to emmigrate.. a lie told now will prevent that ..
[/quote]
Ray,
He has NOT committed a crime.
Agreeing to a fixed penalty notice means you do not have a criminal record as you are not prosecuted for any offence.
I suggest that is only UK law that matters in this case. Given there are offences under USA law that are not illegal in UK(and vice versa) how would an British applicant be expected to know the minutia of USA law - not to mention any applicant from any other part of the world.
If the M-1 Visa application asks if he has a criminal record he can answer answer ‘No’ with a clear conscience. If however it asks if he has been arrested he should obviously answer ‘Yes’. Or of course he may be asked about this on interview.
However from the original post it would appear that he is well aware of those facts and the long term implications of lying and getting caught doing so.
You might reasonably deduce from his post he was seeking views on the chances of being caught if he did not declare the incident.
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:
Ray,
He has NOT committed a crime.
[/quote]
Under UK law, I agree... But under US law which is what counts he has ...
On the DS156 the question is:
Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any offense or crime, even though subject of a pardon, amnesty or other similar legal action?
In my mind the offence should be declared per that statement ..But the OP must make up his own mind about that ..
Robert5988
22-07-2005, 21:08
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:On the DS156 the question is:
Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any offense or crime, even though subject of a pardon, amnesty or other similar legal action?
[/quote]
Ray,
If that is the question posed on the M-1 Student visa application then quite clearly he should declare the incident. That issue has never been in dispute. The operative word being 'arrest'.
It is much like the Visa Waiver where perusal on the US Embassy regulations make it clear that any arrest makes you inelligble for the VWP.(although if you only read the I-94W you might not realise that)
That said, answering 'Yes' to that question doesn't mean ]"you have committed a crime" [/b] under US Law or any other law.
The whole point of a fixed penalty notice(that you do not dispute) is that you are not charged, do not plead, are not found guilty, do not have have a conviction and do not have a criminal record as you have not committed an offence/crime/misdemeanor.
tomomac34
23-07-2005, 13:49
Thanks to everyone that has replyed! its been great help!
Ive decided im going to be 100% honest. at the end of the day, what i have done is minimal BUT if I lie and get found out - i may never be able to go to America again!! and thats the worst thought - I intend on visiting many times more than just once.
What is the precedure with this interview? - what im saying is - when i tell them does it automatically become a "non routine" application?? do they have set procedures they have to follow?? or will they still have the power to issue me the Visa on the day if they feel comfortable?
Thanks Again
tom
LiesaAnna
23-07-2005, 14:29
if nothing else your consience will be clear, and then altho it may not help for this particular visit it will help for further visits to the US
i wouldve thought as it is a "minor" offence it would be cleared up quite quickly? let us know how you get on for the sake of others in a similar/same boat please[msnwink]
Good Luck, i always believe honesty is the best policy!! you'll feel better for it!![clap]
Hi Tom,
You have made the right decision, even though you have been dealt with by the 'fixed penalty scheme' it is still classed as a conviction and you will now have a CRO number and a criminal record.Being issued the ticket is not an admission of guilt it can be contested in court if requested, and the embassey have access to the records.
The trivial offence you have been arrested for however does not constitute a crime and should bear no wieght on your application.
Robert5988
24-07-2005, 02:34
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Hi Tom,
You have made the right decision, even though you have been dealt with by the 'fixed penalty scheme' it is still classed as a conviction and you will now have a CRO number and a criminal record.Being issued the ticket is not an admission of guilt it can be contested in court if requested, and the embassey have access to the records.
The trivial offence you have been arrested for however does not constitute a crime and should bear no wieght on your application.[/quote]
Have you read the first post and subsequent posts?
You do not, repeat not, have a conviction or criminal record when you get dealt with under the fixed penalty scheme.
Or, if you still maintain you are correct, enlighten us please.
tomomac34
12-08-2005, 02:32
HI!
Just to let you all know that Ive come back from the Embassy today with my VISA!! YEY!
I answered "yes" to the Question on the DS-156 form and told the truth!
THEY NEVER ASKED A THING!!
Either they didnt notice (which I doubt!) OR the Have access to the Police national Database with GREAT EASE!
If anyone whats to know any specific details Just ask and Ill more than help (whilst its fresh in my head!)
Thanks
Tom
Congratulations, well done you! :) Now you can relax and enjoy your flying.
I work for the Governement - I can assure you they do NOT have access to the PNC - we have it at work and it is SO controlled. I hate to say it but despite the myth that we share info on everyone it is simple not true. Having said that honesty is always the best policy [msnwink]
Robert5988
22-08-2005, 15:07
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:I work for the Governement - I can assure you they do NOT have access to the PNC - we have it at work and it is SO controlled. I hate to say it but despite the myth that we share info on everyone it is simple not true. Having said that honesty is always the best policy [/quote]
Exactly right.
It is amazing how these ‘urban myths’ are perpetuated in internet forums; even this one.
Anyone wanting the authorities to access the database on their behalf has to have a sound justification – particularly a foreign country.
Hi All
Wonder if any one can help i have a guest that want's to book our villa but about 20 years ago he was convicted for GBH and went to jail for a spell of about two years will he have to get a visa? or wont they let him in to the states at all!
He has been to mexico and barbados in the past six years without any problems at getting into there county. Is florida the same.
If he does not tell anyone and just turn up at florida will they know at immigrations desk and how can they tell by his passport.
regards steve
Robert5988
23-08-2005, 13:10
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Hi All
Wonder if any one can help i have a guest that want's to book our villa but about 20 years ago he was convicted for GBH and went to jail for a spell of about two years will he have to get a visa? or wont they let him in to the states at all!
He has been to mexico and barbados in the past six years without any problems at getting into there county. Is florida the same.
If he does not tell anyone and just turn up at florida will they know at immigrations desk and how can they tell by his passport.
regards steve[/quote]
Does he need a Visa - Yes
Won't they let him in at all - Depends if they issue a Visa - most people get one if their offence was 20 years ago.
Will they know at the Immigration desk - almost certainly not
How can they tell from his passport - They Can't