first time

[kkevingo]

hi i hope to be going in late april /may
its my first time out there so im trawling around a bit blind at the mo.
has anyone had any dealings with Travel City Direct.
is it best to buy attraction tickets over here or in orlando
sorry if i sound a little foolish but it is a mine field for me at the moment
thanks in anticipation
kevin

[chris]

Hi Kevin
Personally I've not yet dealt with Travel City Direct although I've put myself on their mailing list.
For accommodation, make sure you book directly with an owner as you will get more value for money and a personal service. All the owners on the 2 websites attached to this one take great pride in their homes, just do a general enquiry on the 2 sites and anyone with availability will contact you.
You can also buy attraction tickets by clicking the link above. If you decide to buy in Orlando make sure you go to a proper ticket office. There are lots of stands beside shops where they don't always sell tickets with their full number of days still available etc. Also you may find yourself wasting hours of precious holiday time at a timeshare presentation. Gate prices are always dear.

Chris

[villainthesun]

We booked with Travel City Direct when we went out in Sep 2001. Although they are very cheap, you get what you pay for. In our case a flight on an aircraft that would have been better off in a museum, not to mention the necessity for a refueling stop in Gander.

I believe they are now using ex-BA Jumbos, which from what I've heard have also seen better days.

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

Are they the European 747's Adrian - painted a rather bad black and yellow colour scheme. The one that always seems to be parked on the apron at Manchester airport is definitely ex-BA as I remember flying on that particular aircraft to Florida with BA in the late 70's!

[Theresa]

Unfortunately I too have experienced Travel City Direct. First a few years ago, before being a homeowner, I booked the flights, car hire and villa. Villa was terrible - dirty, pest ridden and hardly any cooking or eating utensils. Had to buy some mugs to use! Before this we had booked direct with the owner of villas - only way to go.

We used them for August for flights on the ex BA jumbos. Only had 2 toilets out of 6 working at the back of the plane, in flight entertainment didn't work and some seats were even held together with duct tape. When we complained the staff said "that is what you get travelling with European Aviation". Says it all I think.

Agree with the above you get what you pay for. Saying that the flights for August ended up being more expensive than BA in the end. You have to pay for extras - pre bookable seats and luggage allowance.

I will not use them again - would sooner pay the extra for BA or Virgin service

[villainthesun]

I don't know about black and yellow, from what I recall they're basically white with a purple-ish coloured tail with EAL in white lettering (but I could be wrong). Coincidentally they're based at our local airport here in Bournemouth, so they're quite often to be seen parked up on the tarmac when you drive past. They look quite incongrous at an airport that is still little more than a collection of sheds.

I recall reading a Travel City Direct/EAL trip report from someone (must have been on T-F site, can't find it on OV forum) that was very similar to Theresa's experience.

Having had the luxury of 3 return flights with US Airways in 2002 since my Travel City Direct experience, I certainly wouldn't go back to TCD (even though US Airways managed to put my suitcase on a flight to Manchester instead of Gatwick last month!). There are some things in life it's worth paying extra for, and in my opinion transatlantic air travel is one of them. But then I only have to pay the airfare for myself rather than a family with 2.4 children, so my perspective may be a bit different.

By the way, speaking of black and yellow planes, has anyone heard any more about the Skybus budget airline recently?

[kkevingo]

thanks for your replies
finally booked for 20 march till 3 april staying at indian ridge oaks
landing at sanford on brittania
cant wait

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

Enjoy your vacation kkevingo!

[florida4sun]

TCD! I sepnt last summer calming pople down who had booked villas with them. They had over booked and then dumped the guests onto an Mc who asked for our help. We managed to sort them all out but they were not happy and of course muggings here got all the grief.


quote:Originally posted by kkevingo

hi i hope to be going in late april /may
its my first time out there so im trawling around a bit blind at the mo.
has anyone had any dealings with Travel City Direct.
is it best to buy attraction tickets over here or in orlando
sorry if i sound a little foolish but it is a mine field for me at the moment
thanks in anticipation
kevin

[PaulaK]

I too made the mistake of travelling with Travel City Direct in October 2001. Nightmare from start to finish. The airline involved at that time was American Transair (more like Bucket Airlines). The inflight entertainment (and I use the term lightly being some plastic headphones to see the one screen at the front of the plane) did not work, the food was inedible, I had a piece of chicken that was like a tennis ball, no service to speak of and what there was was curt and sullen. One drink on the way out to Sanford (thank god for the stop in Gander and the decent sandwich, loo and beer). The flight was inexplicably late both ways. The Travel City Direct representative did not bother to turn up at her/his expected meeting place on Internatiional Drive - dont blame them, probably knew that there would be a crowd. Been to Florida since with Virgin - highly recommended. Service, food, drinks, entertainment and comfort of a high quality - pay a bit more and go with them!!!!

[nargent]

I travelled with Travel City Direct last September - they cancelled our initial flight 3 months before departure becuase they swapped from America Transair to the European Aviation and no longer flew on the day we originaly booked. That cost us 3 extra days hotel bookings - to fit in with our villa. Fortunately that was the only problem we had with them, the flights were on time and it's true you get what you pay for, the planes had seen better days!

Even though I hate spending a penny more than I have too, next time I am seriously considering paying a little extra and flying with Virgin. Having said that - if the difference in price is considerable I may still fly TCD!

[Steve Johnson]

Just to agree with PaulaK

Tried a couple of different companies (can't remember who![:o)])

But Virgin by far the best - But not sure how they compare for prices?

Checked some flights with Virgin from now 'till November and not much left!!!

Whatever you do kk enjoy:D
Steve

[villaowner]

Sorry guys, I've read with disbelief the TCD comments. They take around 130,000 passengers a year (including my family) so must be doing something right. They are also the largest tour operator villa supplier. I'm not pro-TCD, just trying to balance things fairly.

ALL tour operators rely on management companies getting things right as they don't control booking levels themselves (Florida4sun - tour operators use management companies to control bookings, unfortunately some get greedy and don't like turning down bookings so end up confirming bookings to tour operators that they can't later fulfil). Owners by and large actually LIKE tour operators - they are the ones that generate the business that pays the owner's mortgage!! It's rogue management companies (and there are a lot of them) that owners have a problem with.

I know a number of homeowners who have huge problems with management companies (not declaring rentals, not paying utility bills, not paying the Florida sales tax etc) which causes immense problems for not only for the owner, but often for renting clients and also tour operators - because electricity can be cut off and even foreclosures (repossessions) leading to evictions can occur while people are in the villa.

I see first hand the trouble caused by unscrupulous owners also, who place their home with a management company to get year-round rentals to cover their mortgage. They gratefully accept the off-peak bookings (mainly from tour operators) and then refuse to accept the peak bookings because they can get higher rates directly with clients (domestic clients usually). Having had everything nicely arranged, the tour operator (who is responsible) has to find an alternative, sometimes at very short notice.
So although I accept that TCD may have been remiss in some of the cases (you'll find similar stories about all other tour operators on certain sites), it is important to look at the whole picture. Tour operators as a whole, supply good quality, reasonably priced villas. If you are unfortunately allocated a home that hasn't been cleaned (another duty the management company is paid to do.....), a quick call to the management company or local rep should get things sorted.
And those who only book direct with owners should do it with their eyes wide open. Yes you can get a cheaper deal, but you are not protected from the issues described above - you are still dependant on an efficient management company. Also, if that owner loses his home (foreclosure) or decides to sell, there is NOTHING you can do. If you are lucky you may recover your money but will still be left with trying to find another villa at short notice. Bear in mind that you receive NO package holiday travel industry financial protection when you split your holiday into separate components booked through different companies. I'm not knocking direct deals, just be aware of the pitfalls - the recent demise of some 'direct' booking organisations has led to a lot of bargain-seeking clients losing money.
The site is great though, these are issues that should be highlighted.

[porky]

Which travel agent do you work for villa owner, or are you a share holder in TCD?

Jacqui

[marion]

I DO NOT BELEVE WHAT I HAVE JUST READ
FOR ONCE IN MY LIFE I AM SPEECHLESS.

[mm69340]

Hi Villaowner-

I have to disagree with a lot of what you stated.

I am with a large MC that does tour bookings and although I am asked to take bookings BEFORE they confirm someowners are not. HOWEVER, if my MC company is full- we can not deny bookings that have already been placed with our homes. This is company policy and they will only take bookings out of your home if they have another home to place the client in.

I have to say that booking with an owner you get to talk to them. I give my number to prospective clients to call and talk to me anytime(except when sleeping).

I just think you can't make a blanket statement like you did. There are unsavory people everywhere. I just had a booking through my MC from a tour operator and they stole my belongings, broke into my stuff and broke some appliances.... So, if I were like you I would make a blanket statement to owners- Don't take tour bookings! BUT, I am a rational person who realizes this is an isolated incident and does not reflect all tour bookings. I just got a bad apple from the bunch.

[steph_goodrum]

On the other hand I took a guest last year who was extremely wary about booking as she had already lost a $300 deposit to a firm who were members of the Better Business Bureau who went out of business without telling her anything about it and it was only when they tried to find where they should pay the balance they found out about it. So booking with a company gives you no more protection. Best option is to pay by credit card and then if there is an issue you have someone else to try and help.
I had a guest who had to cancel earlier this year through a very serious illness and they had no trouble reclaiming their money from the insurance company.

[athurstance]

Firstly - no most owners don't like tour operators - they are the ones who rip us off - charging the guest a high rate and passing on only a small fee to the owner. They also have a neat habit of booking whole chunks of villa space then cancelling all the off-peak bookings at the last minute leaving only poorly paid peak time bookings.

As a villa owner of some years I have heard the odd tale of bad management companies but they can only get away with it if the owners don't have a personal hand in running their own villa. I know that the owners who bother to market their villas direct on sites such as this one do have a very personal involvement in all aspects of their own villas.

Also it is very misleading to suggest you have no protection if you book directly with an owner. Firstly when you book a holiday you should always have travel insurance and you would be covered for any loss on a villa rental just as you would on a flight or any other part of your holiday. In my experience the 'package holiday protection' you talk about is riddled with get out clauses and you'll be extremely lucky to get any recompense. On the other hand I know I and many other owners go out of our way to be helpful when people have to cancel or change their holiday. You book directly with an owner you get a personal service, you get to know the person you are renting a villa from and they get to know you. After all we are entrusting our home with our guests and we want them to enjoy staying in it.
The other huge advantage of booking direct is you know exactly where you'll be staying and what facilities you'll get. You never get this with the tour operators because even they don't know which villas they've been allocated. You could just as easily end up 30 minutes or more from Disney in the villa with the pool overlooking the gas station because at peak times owners with the really nice villas have already booked them out themselves - so you're left with the ones either too far out or which nobody else wants.
I also don't think those guests who want to book a villa direct with the owner are looking for a bargain. They are looking for good value but that is not the same thing. Our villas are all luxury accommodation with private pools and all kinds of executive level extras - this is what guests want. They get all that luxury and space fo the price of a hotel room and they can feel secure in making their booking direct with the owner because we are always on hand for a chat by email or phone whenever they have a question.
Since buying my villa I've never willingly stayed in a hotel since wherever we go I always look through the villa listings and I would always book directly with the owner.

Angela

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

Villa Owner:

Just wondering why you call yourself a villa owner yet your email address clearly states you work for Travel City Direct...have you got something to hide / an ulterior motive?

I don't know of a single private owner who 'LIKES' tour operator bookings - we would never put them into our own villas and would much rather deal direct with the guest who for their part get a much more personalised and attantive service than going with a tour operator who allocates villa on arrival.

Also you comment about 'unscrupulous owners' and 'bad management companies' and not well formed. I could easily argue that the kind of owner who lets tour operator bookings pay the majority of their mortgage (if they can manage to do this given the poor rates you get from most tour operator bookings) is the kind of owner who has no interest in their villa and is happy to let someone else do everything for them in the vain hope of breaking even. It is exactly this kind of owner who is likely to have their mortgage 'foreclosed on'.

All of the private owners on our sites (and they are ALL private owners) do their own bookings and take a great pride in the way their villa is both managed and appears to guests. They will go out of their way to make sure a guest has the holiday of a lifetime in their villa.

There is just no comparison with booking a villa via a tour operator and booking direct from a private owner...the two things are on a very different level.

[steph_goodrum]

"Owners by and large actually LIKE tour operators - they are the ones that generate the business that pays the owner's mortgage!"

You obviously aren't privy to the figures then Villaowner, when you look at the prices quoted in the brochures, the management company is often paid less than half that figure, they then take their cut (10-20%), the Sales and Tourist tax account for 10-12% depending on County and then the homeowner gets whats left to pay all the running and maintenance costs. The reason most homeowners will only take them is if they really can't fill the booking slot as we can't even afford to subsidise holidays for our friends and family so why would we want to pay for strangers to stay in our home?

[Chris7]

I don't work for TCD (or in the travel industry) and I can't speak for TCD as I've never used them. If villaowner has a vested interest then he should certainly disclose it, but I do have some sympathy with the unrealistic expectations of tourists.

Repeatedly I've seen ill-experienced kids (travel reps) trying to deal with complaints from holiday makers which are based on an unrealistic expectation of their holiday. When I pay £99 for a week in Spain (and I've done it!) I am not surprised that the standards are low. That's one of the reasons I mainly go to the US now.

With a travel lodge costing £45 per night, a second class return to London (from York) £80 and breakfast in a little chef £5, do the maths. You can't get flights, accommodation and on board meals etc for the prices which the industry now charge.

You do get what you pay for, and whilst I have no desire to pay extra, I'd be prepared to if the charges were honest and transparent. I'm sick of being ripped off with travel insurance, free car hire but high priced CDW etc - why don't the agents come clean and tell it like it is. I won't use an agent again as I get less hassle and better value dealing direct. Many people will continue to book "the package", but not if the industry don't buck up their ideas :(

[Theresa]

When looking for flights eariler in the year for July this year I rang TCD for a quote. There was no way I was going to fly with them again just wanted to compare prices. The tickets for my Virgin flight was cheaper than if I had book through TCD going on Air European. Just goes to show! Plus at no extra charge I have a good baggage allowance, hopefully a plane that is not held together with duct tape, working toilets, pre-bookable seats at no extra cost, individual TV's, and another important point my air miles!

[lexton]

We used Travel City 4years ago,for a fly-drive,cheap flights but 8 seater van insurance very dear.Villa booked independently,as have the last 2 villas we have stayed in.I personally prefer to deal directly with the owner,and although we could have this year gone for a cheaper villa, we wanted to rent a villa that was not overlooked at the back and had a lake view,something which you don't get booking through a travel agent.I, just for curiosity,have just worked out booking with Virgin holidays,the exact same package I have put together separately ,just substituting the motel room we stayed in the first year 3 of us went to Florida,for the lovely villa we are renting this September.Exact flights,same sized car hire/insurances, with small motel room £3,180!Total cost booked independently but staying in a beautiful villa, with direct contact with the owner £2,335.No contest.:DOnly 12weeks to go today but I'm not counting [8D][8D][8D]

[Carla]

I wouldn't touch a tour operator booking for my villa, with a 10ft barge-pole with a health inspector dangling on the end of it!! Goodness only knows who I would end up with staying in my home. The tour operator doesn't care in the slightest, providing the guest can pay.

I have always tried to be an independent traveller, whenever possible, and am more than happy to rent my home to guests of like mind. I get to know them and they get to know me, at least via email and the phone.

I'm not ABTA bonded, or anything else bonded for that matter, but my guests are so much more secure, because I am not an owner who relies on tour op bookings; I do it all myself, so can absolutely guarantee that all of my bills are paid as and when due, with no danger whatsoever of foreclosure. If anything, private owners are constantly upgrading their homes to ensure that repeat guests get something new each year. That's what I do, and all of the private owners that I know do exactly the same.

The homes typically and frequently rented out to tour operators are the "basic" ones, even though they might well call them "luxury" or sometimes even "executive", they are certainly not my idea of anything other than a standard, basic rental home. There are lots of these in Florida, with nothing more in them than the original, basic furniture package. You might get lucky, but you will just never know until you arrive and are allocated a home. However, odds are very much in favour of you getting a basic one, which is a little "tired".

Am I biased against tour op bookings? MOST DEFINITELY - from both owner and guest points of view.
I remember when I was first looking through tour op brochures back in 1995, planning my first trip to Florida, and saw the villas for rent. Soooo expensive for a family of 4 (especially by the time that they had added on under-occupancy charges!!), just way beyond my budget, but then I found that by booking directly with the owner I got a beautiful villa at a price that I could afford.

[caroline]

I have to say I agree with Carla. We definitely only want bookings from guests that we "get to know" via email and phone.

I want our guests to feel confident that they are being given a personal service, and can ask as many questions as they like about their dream holiday to Florida.

When we first started renting out our first villa, we accepted tour operator bookings from our management company (they were British Airways, Thomas Cook amongst others) we got lousy rates! HOWEVER - My biggest concern was that we wanted to upgrade the villa by offering VCR, DVD, Playstation 2, crib, highchair, bbq etc etc and the management company wouldn't allow us to put these things in the home so that our guests could use them free of charge as they rent them out. So people booking through tour operators undoubtedly do get the more "basic" homes and if they want the "extras" probably have to pay locally for them!

We switched management company and can now offer all these extras to our guests free of charge, as well as a much more "hands on" management company that our guests can call 24/7 for any emergencies.

[blott]

Oh dear... I actually phoned TCD to ask about flights and was told someone was going to ring me back. That was last summer and I'm still waiting... I bet if anyone contacts a private home owner they don't wait more than 24 hours for a response.

We've done it both ways - we rented two homes via tour operators (in 1995 and 1996 as we had no idea how to contact private home owners) and we now own our own Florida home. We paid very much 'over the odds' as there were only four of us in 1995 and three of us in 1996 due to all those under occupancy charges. We arrived in Florida in 1995 and 1996 having no idea at all where we would be staying until we had checked in at a local office where we collected drive directions. I remember waking up on our first morning and wondering where on earth we were!

Well, now we own our own Florida home and everyone we book gets piles of info on the local area before they travel, can ask us any questions they like either before booking or after, our guests know where they will be staying and the facilities available in our home. That's probably why we get so many of them back every year!

The facilities available in our home are the ones we've chosen to provide for our guests, not ones they have to be asked to pay extra to use. The decor and furniture, even down to the teaspoons, are what we've chosen. We even ask our guests to suggest improvements to the facilities and obtain them!

We've had tour operator bookings in our home when we were new to home owning. Oh boy, does the home take a battering from people who don't know you and don't care that our home is our pride and joy. We've also been on the receiving end of cheap rentals from those tour operators - not cheap to the guests, of course, just cheap in relation to the income we receive by the time everyone involved has taken their 'cut' from renting our home, the bills of which we pay! So, we'd rather make sure that any income goes into our pocket so that we can continue to own our home and make improvements to it, not into tour operators' pockets. Been there, done that and got several T-shirts thanks all the same!

Are we ABTA bonded? No, we're not but, I think I can speak for most Florida home owners that, in the highly unlikely event of a disaster happening to our home and our guests are unable to stay there, we would move heaven and earth to find something comparable or even personally pay for an upgraded home for them if necessary. Who needs ABTA bonding with security like that?

[Cowboy]

How happy I am that kkevingo posted this topic and I am sure he now realises about the unsruplous world of the Tour Operator regarding privately owned villas. I take my hat off to John for the quality of his reply. I know John has more information on forum subscribers than the rest of us but he has confirmed what most us suspected regarding the post from villaowner. What a devious person he is but I am sure he has "shot himself in the foot" :D:D:D

Mike.

[Debs]

As a fellow Owner I have to echo all the comments already made by Owners. Booking direct is the only way to go - it is more cost effective, the guest knows exactly what they are getting for their money instead of paying a fortune to a Tour Operator and being "allocated on arrival". From an Owners point of view as so many of us have said we take a huge pride in our homes and also like to get to know the Guests that are staying in our homes.

As a recent Guest commented after their visit "our holiday was the most seamless we have ever experienced". That to me speaks volumes :D:D

[orlandobabe]

I can only echo what everyone says. In three years of owning and booking out my own villa -the only time I have had any problems with my home are again when it has been rented via a tour operator and the guests never got to speak to me direct- so that they didn't know that there was a person on the end of the villa. That was in the first 6 months of owning-and never again-I would rather leave it empty.

I am pleased that the owners of the site have let your post remain so that everyone can see it for the piffle that it is.

[MTP]

As we hopefully will become villa owners, it just shows the tour operators true colours when they make a post like that and try to disguise their true identity. Very surprising that that has been there first and only posting, I know if I had put a posting on that has caused this level of reponse then I would probably be trying to argue my corner by now!

As renters at the moment I really like the fact that I can e-mail the owner of the villa we go to, or text him, or phone him, or meet him for a pint, etc., etc. I like the fact that we really don't want to stay in any other villa as that one feels like a home to us and we know we can rebook it (subject to availability) at a fantastic rate. I like feeling that there is a community of other renters that also look after the home when they are there, and leave their recommendations and findings for everyone to share.

I guess one of the interesting comments to have cropped up is that people booking through the tour operators don't seem to take as good care of the homes. From their point of view I guess the don't feel that they are in Mr & Mrs Blogg's home, but a generic place owned by a large, faceless corporation. Maybe this changes their attitude to how they care for the place, and don't really care about leaving the place in a mess as the maid will come in to clean up after them.

I just can't wait till our next holiday in the villa. We have booked for Dec, but I am just considering trying to sneak in an extra fortnight in October (or should Aileen and I have a week in Vegas without the kids???)

The more I read these forums the more I am overwhelmed with the knowledge about villa owning that I am getting, without the financial risk! Many thanks.

Euan

[phil moloney]

I and 3 other villa owners were with tour operators. Yes they had to sell their homes, I moved on to do my own bookings using an MC who cares for my home and my guests. Less than one year later my home is looking better, my guests are happy and I still own it. I tried to improve my home - bought a barbeque, cot and other items, these were removed, the tour operator told me that they would be availabe to my guests at a weekly rent. Many people are still only begining to realize the difference in booking direct from an owner as John said "the two things are on a very different level". How lovely to have the opportunity to establish the facts!

[chrizzy100]

quote:Originally posted by villaowner

Sorry guys, I've read with disbelief the TCD comments. They take around 130,000 passengers a year (including my family) so must be doing something right. They are also the largest tour operator villa supplier. I'm not pro-TCD, just trying to balance things fairly.

ALL tour operators rely on management companies getting things right as they don't control booking levels themselves (Florida4sun - tour operators use management companies to control bookings, unfortunately some get greedy and don't like turning down bookings so end up confirming bookings to tour operators that they can't later fulfil). Owners by and large actually LIKE tour operators - they are the ones that generate the business that pays the owner's mortgage!! It's rogue management companies (and there are a lot of them) that owners have a problem with.

I know a number of homeowners who have huge problems with management companies (not declaring rentals, not paying utility bills, not paying the Florida sales tax etc) which causes immense problems for not only for the owner, but often for renting clients and also tour operators - because electricity can be cut off and even foreclosures (repossessions) leading to evictions can occur while people are in the villa.

I see first hand the trouble caused by unscrupulous owners also, who place their home with a management company to get year-round rentals to cover their mortgage. They gratefully accept the off-peak bookings (mainly from tour operators) and then refuse to accept the peak bookings because they can get higher rates directly with clients (domestic clients usually). Having had everything nicely arranged, the tour operator (who is responsible) has to find an alternative, sometimes at very short notice.
So although I accept that TCD may have been remiss in some of the cases (you'll find similar stories about all other tour operators on certain sites), it is important to look at the whole picture. Tour operators as a whole, supply good quality, reasonably priced villas. If you are unfortunately allocated a home that hasn't been cleaned (another duty the management company is paid to do.....), a quick call to the management company or local rep should get things sorted.
And those who only book direct with owners should do it with their eyes wide open. Yes you can get a cheaper deal, but you are not protected from the issues described above - you are still dependant on an efficient management company. Also, if that owner loses his home (foreclosure) or decides to sell, there is NOTHING you can do. If you are lucky you may recover your money but will still be left with trying to find another villa at short notice. Bear in mind that you receive NO package holiday travel industry financial protection when you split your holiday into separate components booked through different companies. I'm not knocking direct deals, just be aware of the pitfalls - the recent demise of some 'direct' booking organisations has led to a lot of bargain-seeking clients losing money.
The site is great though, these are issues that should be highlighted.



I have a lot of faith in the home owners here......enough said.....:D:D:D

[fiona]

I think there is a market for both tour operators and owners doing their own rentals, and there is no reason why we should not co-exist in some sort of harmony. Some people like the security of booking through a tour operator and some prefer the more specific contact with the individual owner.

We had tour operator bookings our first year of ownership through our then MC. 12 out of 52 weeks of rental at rates so low you wouldn't believe. That was the total bookings from the tour operators.

We have also stayed through tour operators in 3 villa holidays, one in Spain, one in US. On the last 2 occasions in Spain and Florida we had appalling villas, poor facilities - I'm talking torn sheets, broken crockery - that was Orlando, in Marco we had rats, and in Spain we had the pleasure of no working oven, dishwasher also broken and worked when it felt like it, goldfish rotting in a pool, rotten cushion covers on metal seats so you couldn't sit on them. And I do agree this was all down to lousy management companies. However, when we take control of the villa rentals ourselves, we have direct control of everything, and we appoint management companies who share our ideals and expectations.

Personally I would always go direct with the owner, but we prefer a more independent way of holidaying. Luckily so do our guests.

[villaowner]

Hey!! It's great to have elicited such a response! I quite agree that homeowners don't get paid the true value of their homes through tour operators - and I'm in both camps - and it's also true that prices were actually higher about 4 years ago than now (the number of villas has rocketed for a start, and supply and demand is a big factor). The point I'm trying to make is more or less along the lines of Fiona - the very best system is a blend of both, but it is pointless to claim that direct bookings is the answer to all homeowner problems - equally that tour operators provide this answer, because they don't. I plus other owners I know, would love to be able to get 40+ weeks per year booked direct at good rates, but this proves very difficult. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and accept that you must compromise on the peak season rates through a management company for a tour operator's business, in order to get off-peak business. Every owner has different circumstances, if you have the time to devote to private advertising and work at things yourself I accept it is very likely you will be successful. Not all owners are able to do this though, and might rely on business sourced for them.
For the record, I see matters from both sides and was bringing an alternative opinion to the table - also from a homeowner's perspective. If you read my previous message you will note that the TCD drum in particular wasn't being banged, but the drum of ALL tour operators, as they fulfil an important role for many owners. Everyone has the right to vote with their feet if they aren't getting the type of business, the level of business or the rates they desire, so bringing varied points to a forum for discussion is surely the intention here? Whether everyone agrees is irrelevant, I would suggest that any forum that carries only one opinion is flawed.

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

So by that statement villaowner I take it you are implicitly admitting working for Travel City Direct?

[blott]

quote:Every owner has different circumstances, if you have the time to devote to private advertising and work at things yourself I accept it is very likely you will be successful. Not all owners are able to do this though, and might rely on business sourced for them. Yes, quite correct, which is one of the reasons we suggest that prospective owners ensure that they have the time available to do this prior to their purchase, in order not to be obliged to accept tour operator bookings at very low rates which we all know will never meet the many expenses they encounter in running their home.


quote:If you read my previous message you will note that the TCD drum in particular wasn't being banged, but the drum of ALL tour operators, as they fulfil an important role for many owners. Sorry, but I read it as written - you started your post off in outraged defence of TCD I think?

You can attempt to make a case for tour operator bookings as much as you like but experienced home owners, such as those on this website, will know the true story as they have probably been there and done that and so will experienced guests. There is no way that tour operator bookings are in the interests of the majority of guests (as they are more expensive with under occupancy supplements) or owners (as they fail to provide the level of income required to own a home in Florida). So, whilst it may be 'balanced' to have more than one view represented, as you said yourself, we don't have to agree with you and I think it's pretty clear from the responses you've already elicited, that we have exercised our right not to agree with you!

In short, dealing with a large company can never compete with dealing with a home owner direct on a number of levels - price, information or guest care. As long as people who read this forum realise that fact, then fine.

[Carla]

As Blott has said we ALWAYS advise potential owners that in order to make a success of renting out a home, they have to be able to put in the considerable time and effort required to market it to potential guests. That way they can ensure that they stay out of the clutches of Tour Operator bookings. If they can't devote the time, then they seriously need to consider whether owning in Florida is for them.

I've never had to "bite any bullet" and take low Tour Op. rates, largely due to the fact that I found a Florida owner forum before my home was completed, and was made aware, by more experienced owners, of just how poorly paid and potentially troublesome these Tour Op. bookings can be. Any owners that rely on these bookings are in danger of losing their home, if they have a mortgage, as the rates just aren't enough to fund a well-kept villa, especially since 9/11 when the Tour Op companies have insisted on paying even lower rates to MCs and owners. Having looked through several Tour Op. brochures though, it doesn't seem that they are passing on these lower rates to their guests!!!

There is room for both types, independent and Tour op., however the independent sector is growing rapidly (I've noticed a big change in less than 3 years!) and attitudes of holiday makers are changing. Fortunately, many guests, who are investing a great deal of money in a Florida vacation, want to be in control of what they get.

[villaowner]

I agree with much of what people are saying - particularly Carla. However, just to point out one particular pitfall, many of the realtors in Florida are closely affiliated with management companies and give new owners a guaranteed rental for a year for example. The fact that this 'rental' is disguised within an inflated purchase price paints a very false picture. During the first year, the owner sees a return that not only covers the mortgage but gives a level of 'profit' as well. Problem is, once the year is over the owner is left to their own devices or have to deal through a tour operator via a management company. I'm not saying - which seems to be the consensus - that I'm finding fault with dealing direct, I'm saying that owners have to find a system that works for them. Whether this is direct or via a tour operator is a personal decision. What is clear is that with the amount of rental homes it would be very difficult to imagine a scenario with 100% of bookings booked direct OR via tour operator business. Both have their pros and cons. I know owners who only book direct and achieve 48 weeks per year, and others who only get 28-30 weeks. Similar stories exist via management companies through tour operators. You pay your money.........
Lastly, don't read so much into my employment! My comments were as a homeowner and whether people want to see an ulterior motive that's up to them. I would point out that I could have replied from my home email if I'd wanted to remain completely anonymous!!! If I was denigrating the opposition - which I have no intention of doing - that's quite another matter!!

[mm69340]

[quote]Originally posted by villaowner
[However, just to point out one particular pitfall, many of the realtors in Florida are closely affiliated with management companies and give new owners a guaranteed rental for a year for example


My problem with the statements is they seem to be blanket statements- this one says to me- if your Realtor works for a MC they are lying and steer clear. My Realtor does in fact work for a large MC- his FIRST piece of advice BEFORE he let us buy was-- "The only way this works is if you do it on your OWN!!!!" He also let us buy a resale- that wasn't even his listing.

[villaowner]

mm69340 - please read what's written, not what you feel is between the lines. There is NO blanket statement. I specifically stated 'many' realtors, not 'all'.
Come on, how can ANYONE guarantee a year's rental? Does anyone actually believe that realtors throw in a year's rental out of the goodness of their hearts? I'm not even criticising realtors. It's a valid sales technique designed to convert people who might otherwise sit on the fence. Plus it's their business. What I'm just pointing out is once that year is over, the onus falls heavily onto the owner - who may have originally thought filling his home was an easy exercise. If your realtor is good and advises his clients in an honourable way - brilliant, we need more of them. I also appreciate that you may only have had good experiences to call upon - which is fine, but there is another side and if people want to dismiss it - also fine.

[athurstance]

Now I don't understand where you're going. Initially you were urging guests to use a tour operator now you're on about rental guarantees! Most rental guarantees are provided by putting in tour operator bookings - mainly because owners like us on this site don't want the tour operator bookings.
Personally I'm not interested in either. I organise all my own bookings and will continue to do so.
Whether you're involved in TCD or not doesn't alter the fact that there are plenty of independant guest postings stating that people have had a problem with them (and not just on this forum either). They are quite free to express that if they wish. I did contact them myself last year but like someone else mentioned earlier I'm still waiting for them to ring me back - still having read this thread I can live with that.

[mm69340]

See- maybe you shouldn't read between the lines either! I am the one who was stolen from by a tour GUEST! So- no I haven't had any good experiences!

MY POINT is you seem to only want to point out the NEGATIVE!!! YOU DID NOT write- on the other hand there are good relators affiliated with management companies! I was pointing out the fact that some DO EXIST.

If you want clients to know both sides- then print both sides or let us tell the good side while you tell the negative.

[villaowner]

I wasn't urging people to use tour operators at all, merely balancing the argument because every submission seemed to be criticising tour operators. I agree with you all to a point, but bear in mind that the advice you offer is based on your own experiences (all valid I know) and new owners (or prospective owners) need to have both sides to make an informed decision based on THEIR OWN CIRCUMSTANCES.
I'm happy to note that this has resulted in a true discussion forum though!

[Biggus]

Villaowner(!?!?!?!)
I think that you will find that the original posts on this thread were concerning ONE PARTICULAR tour operator - the one you work for, whilst it is a natural reaction to 'defend' or 'balance' a discussion I don't think that people feel you are in a position to provide a balanced argument given who you are employed by - especially when you post under the title 'villaowner' and give the impression of impartiality without being brave enough to come forward and state your background from the start. I am neither a villa owner NOR do I work for any such organisation in connection with the holiday/real estate trade, I am merely a very happily satisfied 'customer' of one of the villa owners from this site, I hasten to add I will NEVER go back to booking a holiday through an agent again, why pay the middle man when you can deal with the friendly/helpful/caring owner direct!

[chrisj]

im not an owner or a travel rep. I just read this thread and thought I would
put a point over.

For years we have always booked with tour operators and paid what I thought was
an over-inflated price for a holiday. A few years ago we decided enough was enough
and started booking our own flights and hotel rooms. We have never had a problem
going independant and have saved a lot of money on a typical package holiday.

Compared to what we have had to pay in the past, nowdays we pay an awful lot less
for the same type of holiday, to me that means more spending money or less to have
to save.

Makes sense to me

[mikewj]

I have aspirations of becoming a villa owner, but for now am just a contented traveller who echoes Chrisj's comments.

Having booked my first trip to Florida (and previous trips to Europe) through a tour operator we were suprised to see how cheap the hotel rooms actually cost along 192 and I-Drive. When we got home we did the calculations and worked out that we'd virtually paid twice what we could (should) have done.

Needless to say, we haven't been with a tour operator since, and have stayed in hotels, villas and apartments in Florida and Europe that we have chosen and booked, saving us a fortune. However, for those people who don't want the hassle (and sometimes it is) of doing it themselves, the tour operator does offer an attractive platter of pre-packaged holidays. (isnt alliteration great ?)

However, its only logical that someone will suffer financially when a middle man is involved in any business venture. After all, they dont get into it for nothing so its either the paying customer or the villa owner who has to pay their cut.

The other thing to remember is that successful tour operators are usually dealing with a large number of customers and a large number of suppliers so rubbing a few villa owners up the wrong way may not be too much of a worry to them. After all, if they dont like it there are plenty more where they came from.

It may not be the right way to do things, but its how a lot of business operate and I dont suppose that Travel City Direct operates differently from any others....they just happen to specialise in trips to the place we love most !

As for people stealing from or damaging villas or any other property, I dont think that the blame for this can be levelled at the tour operator. Unfortunately, its a product of today's irresponsible society and unfortunately, seems to be a growing trend. The "yob culture" seems to be here to stay and is prevalent wherever you travel. Unfortunately, from the evidence I've seen, it looks like the British are amongst the worst offenders !

Only my (Mike's) take on things, but there you go.....rant rant rant.....now where are those off topic corny jokes ?

[Shardeblil]

I think the reason for pointing out about the theft from our villa's, is not to blame the tour operators but to point out that when a guest books direct through an owner, it becomes much more personal and by the time the guest actually stays in the villa, they feel that the owner is actually a friend and they respect their property and belongings.

And we, as owners, want to make sure that their holiday is a memorable one, so we give them advise on places to eat, places to visit and we also tell them about other places to visit apart from the theme parks, (there is so much more to see). Again my point being we make the effort to find out about all these things so we can pass on the information.

Guests to us are not just reference numbers, they also become our friends and when we say have a great holiday, we REALLY mean it:D

[villaowner]

If I can put my industry hat on for a while, can I ask what attracted you all to the sub-divisions on which you bought your villas. I don't need to know where, specifically, unless you want to, but I am interested in the reasons behind your choices.
Was it price? Location? You'd rented a home there before? Or just because it's a perfect place for a holiday home! For my part Highlands Reserve was an ideal choice with a peaceful backdrop and Disney only about 10-15 mins drive.
The newest - and in many eyes the best - sub-divisions seem to be built with resort facilities in mind - Emerald Island and Windsor Palms are 2 good examples - and I have been told by realtors and developers that this is likely to be an increasing trend.
Obviously not all new sub-divisions will have this range of communal facilities and it is possible that resale values could be affected by not only the presence of perceived 'superior' sub-divisions, but also the influx of new housing. The recent developments towards Clermont indicate that the housebuilding program is still a little crazy, despite there being SO many homes for sale on some existing sub-divisions.

[fiona]

We picked where we bought because genuine nearness to Disney was important to us. It's a small and quiet community but only minutes from decent restaurants and the theme parks. We wouldn't go with the additional facities that are offered with WP and EI because experience has shown us we like the sound of it, but never use it! 10 years down the line this will probably be the way to go.

[sunshine state]

where is it your actually staying.

[chris]

I bought where I did because of closeness to Disney and because the home had features I paticularly wanted such as a south facing pool. I bought a resale because I could not afford new!
I also chose my sub-division because it had a nice friendly feel to it. There is a reasonable proportion of residents so reselling will be slightly easier as they do not like to be on mainly rental communities. The family who live opposite are keeping an eye on my house for me so can contact my management company or myself if there is anything happening with my home that I should know about.

[neilbrunton]

This thread could turn into a "Guess which Community we Live in" thread. We may need some more clues.

[Carla]

We bought where we did because we wanted a home that backs onto a natural lake, is part of a conservation area and has a south facing pool, all in an area that is very peaceful and quiet. These were the only criteria that we never waivered on, when we were looking for our dream home. It took several years to find our lot and then 13 months for the builder to actually build the villa!!
Price, proximity to Disney and community facilities were not an issue for us.

[steph_goodrum]

"They were ideally situated being a short drive to Disney but being far enough out of it so that Disney was not on top of you."

This is a quote from part of an e-mail I received from a guest who left last week, he had booked 3 villas for his wedding and is precisely one of the reasons we chose where we are. To be fair when it came down to it there were several developments being started when we were looking 3 years ago in the same area, which we could have chosen, but we liked having the community facilities, of course after that they started on Wyndham Palms and now Emerald Isle with even more. But with further development of facilities on 27 we're still happy with our choice. If we had unlimited funds we may have made deifferent choices but we weren't prepared to over commit ourself particularly as we also have other responsibilities to consider.

[Ruth]

We chose where we did because of the fantastic view out of the window, the quality of the villas and the spaciousness of the community:)

[villaowner]

Has anyone had a problem with break-ins? I know they've caught the main gang responsible for a load last year, but there is always a risk because a lot of the homes are empty for a while.
The main problems I heard were for Highlands (never noticed anything - most seemed to be for homes close to the highway for a quick getaway), Rolling Hills and Eagle Point. Anyone with any stories? I've heard of 1 or 2 in Windsor Palms even - so gated community is no guarantee - but none in Emerald Island.

[blott]

We spent three years looking at different communities and homes in the area and we chose our home community because of its well spaced homes and landscaped community areas, small and separate sub-communities and the fact that it's in a nature conservation area (so it's quiet and peaceful) but near to shops, restaurants, supermarkets, fishing, golf and Disney.

We chose our lot for it's great two lakes, stream, the direction it faces and has no near neighbours.

We chose our home plan because it's light and airy with plenty of space and well planned.

I don't remember the actual final price coming into the equation much but our preference criteria were paramount in our decision.

[chrizzy100]

quote:Originally posted by villaowner

If I can put my industry hat on for a while, can I ask what attracted you all to the sub-divisions on which you bought your villas. I don't need to know where, specifically, unless you want to, but I am interested in the reasons behind your choices.
Was it price? Location? You'd rented a home there before? Or just because it's a perfect place for a holiday home! For my part Highlands Reserve was an ideal choice with a peaceful backdrop and Disney only about 10-15 mins drive.
The newest - and in many eyes the best - sub-divisions seem to be built with resort facilities in mind - Emerald Island and Windsor Palms are 2 good examples - and I have been told by realtors and developers that this is likely to be an increasing trend.
Obviously not all new sub-divisions will have this range of communal facilities and it is possible that resale values could be affected by not only the presence of perceived 'superior' sub-divisions, but also the influx of new housing. The recent developments towards Clermont indicate that the housebuilding program is still a little crazy, despite there being SO many homes for sale on some existing sub-divisions.


We picked out our place for full time living...so it had to be nothing that looked like Butlins.....also to give me two kinds of people to resale too.....people wanting a holiday home.....or someone who lives and works in that area....I wanted to pay less for more living space.....I wanted to be able to rent if I wanted to at any time.....I also wanted to be able to do what I wanted to my OWN villa within reason...without having the HOA breathing down my back......
I found all that easy enough in one place.....:)

[mm69340]

We bought ours for our retirement. We wound up with community featuers we will use in our old age. It was well priced and we don't have to be pressured to rent it 52 weeks a year to help us. We also wanted to be able to keep rental charges down for young families like us to afford a great Disney vacation.

[villaowner]

Thanks all - very helpful. Would like comments on break-ins though.....as per previous msg.

[athurstance]

I haven't heard that much about break-ins on this forum so I would guess not many people (if any) have been affected. Of course there have been some (not just rental villas but residents homes aswell) as there are wherever you have property but I don't think it is a big problem.
I would say you should take the same precautions you do at home - ie make sure the windows/doors are closed when you go out for the day.

[caroline]

I'm not aware of break-ins being anymore of a problem in the Orlando area than anywhere else in Florida (or anywhere else for that matter)

Can I ask why you're interested? Do you own a villa or are you looking to buy in a particular community?

[steph_goodrum]

Villaowner
Yes there are break ins occasionally as anywhere in the world. But if you have taken reasonable precautions and the guests use the information they are given to safeguard their belongings and our property, by setting the alarm if there is one for example., then it is pointless to worry about it all the time. We are stopping in 6 different hotels in the summer and no doubt our rooms may not be as secure as a home but if we have no safe available we'll keep our passports and money with us and it clothes etc get taken we can live with that.
Most guests who choose to stay in a villa can be sure their property is as safe, if not safer, as in any hotel room.

[villaowner]

Caroline,
Home is on Highlands Reserve, but am in travel industry and cannot knowingly send clients to a sub-division where break-ins are rife. I can get up to date reports from Polk and Osceola police but have found that not all break-ins are reported if nothing appears to have been taken. Any break-in info allows informed decisions to be made as to whether a sub-division is used. Last year, prior to the gang being caught, some clients who had reported a break-in, were told by the police that this was the 6th break-in on that sub-division in a fortnight!! Clients weren't pleased!!
Glad to see that quite a few owners have residents looking out for their properties - it does make a difference.

[fiona]

Haven't heard of any problems in particular on our community villa owner. I also tell everyone to take the same precautions you would at home; ensure windows and doors are secure; valuable items out of sight etc.

[neilat]

I will be going to Florida with TCD for the third time (plus one time to Spain). I must say I have no complaints with fights from Glasgow or accomodation (hotel & villa).

The last two visits were basically Thomson holidays (inc. Thomson flight tickets and baggage labels!!). This time it is MyTravel (inc. MyTravel flight). The only difference is with the cost - almost half price. :D

They charge for the villa per week (as seem most villa owners here do) not per person as per most tour operators.

If I have any problems with TCD this time - I'll let you (fingers crossed):)

[villaowner]

Thanks everyone - if you do hear of any break-in info, please post it as forewarned is forearmed!!
Some holidaymakers seem to leave common sense at home when they come over - I've known of about 5 or 6 clients who have left their villas to go down to the Gulf for a day or two, but have left a load of stuff in the pool area.........then complain when they get a break-in!! Talk about putting temptation in front of someone!
You're quite right Fiona, they wouldn't do that at home.

[steph_goodrum]

That's precisely the problem Villaowner, you can't make people take sensible steps.
Incidentally I don't believe posting break in information on here is a very good idea as you have to keep it all in perspective , when was the last time a customer came into your shop and asked for the airline safety statistics to decide which airline they should fly with. If they walk in and you said "Oh such and such an airline had a crash last week you would want to reassure the customers that these occurences are rare and not to be expected every time they step on a plane", just to publish the negative incidents rather than the thousands of people who holiday without any mishaps soon paints a very distorted picture.

[mm69340]

This is what I said previously-- Villaowner seems to WANT to highlight the negative!

[chrizzy100]

quote:Originally posted by villaowner

Thanks everyone - if you do hear of any break-in info, please post it as forewarned is forearmed!!
Some holidaymakers seem to leave common sense at home when they come over - I've known of about 5 or 6 clients who have left their villas to go down to the Gulf for a day or two, but have left a load of stuff in the pool area.........then complain when they get a break-in!! Talk about putting temptation in front of someone!
You're quite right Fiona, they wouldn't do that at home.


If you're that worried about break ins maybe you should send your holidaymakers to the Cape.....we don't lock doors.. windows..cars...in fact we leave our cars open and running outside the post office etc.....maybe even with the house keys on the flop......and with tons of CD's on the dashboard.....break-ins would be the last thing on my mind when away.....I can't see it being something on the minds of most people when they go away....unless they had been rob before.....

[villaowner]

Steph Goodrum - the reasons may be different but knowing this info will be of equal benefit to prospective homeowners who are specifically reading sites such as this prior to taking one of the biggest financial decisions they've ever taken in their lives. Break-ins have probably taken place on every sub-division but are mainly isolated incidents. But I know I wouldn't want to send clients to sub-divisions where there are recurring problems, and I'll bet that prospective buyers would also want to be made aware prior to parting with their money.

mm69340 - please read the above, if you feel I'm highlighting negativity rather than bringing to the table a serious subject that could affect many prospective owners and renters, fair enough - that's your opinion. You may not want this subject aired for reasons of your own - who knows. But the main beneficiaries of such information would be renters and buyers - and if you would seek to deny this information being made available to them, just to score points, then that speaks volumes.

[Carla]

Villaowner, the only person on here with any kind of hidden agenda is yourself.

Your company has basically received a slating (with one exception - lucky neilat) so you are attempting to throw everyone off track. There are many less burglaries from villas than there are from hotels. There are many less burglaries in the Orlando area than there are in many other tourist areas. Travelling is a risk and sensible people take precautions; more precautions than they would at home even, as they are in unfamiliar territory. Hence the number of bum-bags (fanny-packs) to be found on tourists world-wide. No one wears them in their home/work environment!!!

Whilst we are on the subject of travelling being a risk, just how old are some TCD planes? Are your flights so cheap because your planes have seen better days and are usually bought from the major airlines when they have decided that they don't want them any more because they would rather have newer, more reliable, safer planes? With service on the planes being almost non-existent that would help to cut costs as well wouldn't it?

Do you tell your customers that they won't get anything like what they would if they bought a flight from a scheduled airline?

But hey, it's cheap!! Like someone else wrote, you get what you pay for in life.

[steph_goodrum]

"Steph Goodrum - "Break-ins have probably taken place on every sub-division but are mainly isolated incidents. But I know I wouldn't want to send clients to sub-divisions where there are recurring problems."

Villaowner
You, yourself cited Highlands Reserves as having a problem with breakins, although personally I don't think any sub division is worse than any other, but does that mean you have left your villa empty rather than "send clients to sub-divisions where there are recurring problems."
Regarding the other point

"the reasons may be different but knowing this info will be of equal benefit to prospective homeowners who are specifically reading sites such as this prior to taking one of the biggest financial decisions they've ever taken in their lives"
This may well be true but this site is mainly supposed to be for information for guests, it just happens that many have asked questions about purchasing but most of would much rather concentrate on the many aspects of Florida which made us and we hope will make our guests want to come back time and again. It's not a case of the ostrich mentality but life is too short to spend half of it worrying about what may or may not happen, as we've all said if you treat the home with same kind of due diligence that you do at home there is no reason why you should be any more at risk in one area than another.

Getting back to the original question though, having contact with several homeowners who have used Travel City Direct flights, I personally would not feel comfortable flying for 4000 miles at 30,000 feet in an aircraft where some of the seats are being held together by duct tape, if the attention is not being paid to the overall fabric of the aircraft I wouldn't feel confident that the necessary safety checks were all being made, if costs are being cut then safety could be compromised, But that is just my personal opinion,

[caroline]

quote:Originally posted by villaowner

Caroline,
Home is on Highlands Reserve, but am in travel industry and cannot knowingly send clients to a sub-division where break-ins are rife. I can get up to date reports from Polk and Osceola police but have found that not all break-ins are reported if nothing appears to have been taken. Any break-in info allows informed decisions to be made as to whether a sub-division is used. Last year, prior to the gang being caught, some clients who had reported a break-in, were told by the police that this was the 6th break-in on that sub-division in a fortnight!! Clients weren't pleased!!
Glad to see that quite a few owners have residents looking out for their properties - it does make a difference.


So, if I understand correctly - let's say your company has 6 families booked in for 2 weeks from the 1st August at "Super Florida community" and mid July you hear there have been 6 break-ins in the last 2 weeks, your company is going to move these families?? I'd like to know where to, as in high season you'd be lucky to find any decent villas available.

Also you've no idea of the circumstances of the break-ins, were the guests responsible by not locking the doors etc, could even be an insurance scam..you would never know.

I have to say I agree with Carla (again) I think you have a hidden agenda, let's face it your company has a pretty dire reputation, every report I've ever heard/read (with the exception of neilat)has slated your planes, customer care, time keeping etc

I for one prefer to pay a fair price for decent service

[Ruth]

You state your home is on Highlands Reserve. Do you live in your home there or do your rent your villa out? Please state if you have any actual experience of being a short term rental owner, or is your experience limited to working for a dubious tour operator.

I agree with the others. I would not want to fly across the Atlantic on antique planes thanks very much, no matter how cheap.

[blott]

On the subject of health and safety of guests, the majority of home owners have had no problem either with the security of their home or their community. Our home, along with many others, has a monitored security alarm and a safe available for guests (not because we're expecting problems but just as an additional customer service to our guests), should any of them be concerned, although why they should be any more concerned in Florida than at home, as you are suggesting, is totally ridiculous.

Personally, as someone not keen on flying in the first place, I'd be far more worried about getting on a plane which another airline has decided to dispose of and wondering about the servicing that a minor company can provide for it. Sure, I expect some passengers would prefer to save money on their flights but certainly not me! I prefer to pay a reasonable price, travel on a scheduled major airline, land in the airport of my choice and not experience delays.

It's a bit like the discussion before with renting a home isn't it? If guests don't care where they stay, in what home, without the benefit of copious info and take a chance on what standard and equipped home they get, then that's their choice and good luck to them (they're probably going to need it). It's precisely the same with flying and other components of their holiday. You want cheap, you pay cheap and you get cheap, although whether that gives you a good holiday, never mind the 'holiday of a lifetime' is a matter for conjecture.

[villaowner]

I am prepared to concede Steph Goodrum's point about the site being for guest information - if it's the wrong forum then this can be redirected, no problem. The only agenda here is to gain info that will help clients by helping us.
I originally tried to balance the arguments against tour operators (and yes, TCD is included), but have deliberately not commented on the more vitriolic attacks. Let me just say that ALL tour operators have to comply with not only CAA regulations for their aircraft, but ATOL for their bonding and ABTA for their code of conduct. The industry is heavily regulated, as it should be, and NO tour operator would be allowed to conduct their business if any breach - especially including safety - existed. It is normal practice for planes no longer used by operators to be utilised further within the industry - the loss of business suffered by many operators after 9/11 resulted in a reduction in flights and a necessary sale of planes to consolidate assets. The beneficiaries were operators less affected by 9/11 and with the client base to justify the purchase. Uninformed, juvenile comments benefit no-one. Face it, tour operators NEED homeowners for their client base in exactly the same way as homeowners NEED tour operators to bring renters to Florida - regardless of whether it's a direct deal or through a tour operator.
And for the contributor who asked would we move clients - it depends on whether the risk was ongoing. We would certainly move them if there was a serious ongoing risk - and yes, it may be difficult in peak season but would back one of the 20 or so management companies regularly used to find availability from somewhere. Would we do it as a matter of course, if it was a minor problem? No. Would we knowingly place clients where there is an ongoing risk? Definitely not - hence my interest.

[Ruth]

You haven't answered my question villaowner. I can also state that I, as a genuine villa owner, DO NOT NEED tour operators. I have always done all my own bookings and will continue to do so.

[blott]

quote:Face it, tour operators NEED homeowners for their client base in exactly the same way as homeowners NEED tour operators to bring renters to Florida - regardless of whether it's a direct deal or through a tour operator. I wonder why you keep persisting with this, other than the hope of further advertising for your services? Perhaps some home owners woke up and you're struggling to find homes? Nope, wrong again villaowner, I've faced it and I DO NOT NEED tour operators either! My guests don't need them either as they get far better customer care from me which you could never hope to replicate! But I'm not sure how many times you need to be told that before you believe it...

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

I have to say I would agree with villa owner (is he really a villa owner???) about the actual safety of the aircraft. As an aircraft owner myself I know only too well how strict and precise the CAA are about airworthiness of aircraft - I would add that they are probably the most stringent aviation authority in the world on this count.

Having said that, a lot of people are nervous travellers and seeing the aircraft in the condition that has been described here would do nothing to reassure them - quite the reverse in fact. I know I would not fly with them for this reason and also because I always think of the flight as an integral part of the holiday and want to enjoy it to the fullest I can and in good comfort.

As for the quote below from 'villa owner' - what a load of rubbish - we don't need tour operators at all - most of our guests fly sceduled airlines and are prepared to pay that bit more for comfort and convienience and we would NEVER take a tour operator booking in our 'dream home' no matter how desperate we were (which in fact we are not as we are now fully booked at 51 weeks for 2003 and 2004 is going the same way :D).

quote:
Face it, tour operators NEED homeowners for their client base in exactly the same way as homeowners NEED tour operators to bring renters to Florida - regardless of whether it's a direct deal or through a tour operator.

[caroline]

quote:
Face it, tour operators NEED homeowners for their client base in exactly the same way as homeowners NEED tour operators to bring renters to Florida - regardless of whether it's a direct deal or through a tour operator.


I agree that tour operators NEED homeowners, but we as homeowners most definitely DO NOT NEED tour operators.

As John says, we're fully booked for 2003 and half of 2004, just like many other owners that do ALL their own bookings and provide our guests with a truly personal service that you as a tour operator could not hope to equal.

[Carla]

LOL, Villaowner.:D:D

9/11 doesn't explain the age/state of TCD planes, or the lack of any service.:D:D
Wild horses wouldn't get me on a museum piece for nearly 10 hours!!
You pay cheap, you get cheap.

Oh, and times they are a changing - more and more people are going independently to all sorts of desintations. Isn't the world wide web a wonderful new tool for all of us??

I wonder if TCD will even be around in a few years? We all will be.:D:D

We've seen so many TCD type companies come and go. That's why it costs such a huge fortune to be ABTA and ATOL bonded. :D:D

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

Carla

Did I miss a posting - I didn't see him use the tired old 911 excuse all airlines seem to try on punters when talking about their own inefficiency and price rises :(

[Carla]

Here it is John, just in case anyone else missed it:

"... the loss of business suffered by many operators after 9/11 resulted in a reduction in flights and a necessary sale of planes to consolidate assets. "

Now if I only had a dollar for every time I'd heard the 911 excuse.......!! :D:D

It won't work though to explain TCD planes!!
When your only selling point is a cheap price, you don't get to stay around too long to take advantage of it. :D:D

And we all know that the major airlines and big players were on a cost cutting exercise prior to 911, and then of course disaster struck and they had this wonderful excuse to use to try and justify what they were intending doing anyway! :D:D

[villaowner]

Home is on Highlands, yes I rent it, yes I use direct bookings. No I am not intending to canvass for business, if I was of that mind I would use a more sympathetic forum!!!!
If you read previous postings you will see that apart from the first - where I wanted to balance opinion - I really am not trying to persuade anyone, most of you have pretty hardened opinions anyway, and I'm fine with that!!
What I will ask - and this is also for anyone else of a similar mind to Blott - whose planes do you think bring the stream of clients to our villas? The vast majority of fly drive clients renting villas privately, use MyTravel, Monarch, plus the 'big boys'. If you are not residents but use your Florida villa as a holiday home, then it is likely you yourself use one of these to visit. These are TOUR OPERATORS!!! Now in my opinion that suggests that, contrary to Blott's submission, a heavy reliance is placed on tour operators. Whether you use them for the actual supply of rental clients is irrelevant. Case rests!!!
For John/Sarah Rooke, I agree totally with what you say. Who to fly with, where to go etc, is a choice for the individual. My point was only to take issue with comments that at best were uninformed.
To sign off on a point of impartiality, I have flown with ALL the airlines to the region, and found that each offers a good standard (apart from the food perhaps!) even in 'economy' - with decent prices. If you dig deep enough you will find plenty of criticisms about ALL the main operators, but this has to be off-set against satisfied customers. The monitoring of these services is too close for any operator to consistently underachieve, and the subject is too important to let rumour rule. You DO get more when you upgrade and this again is personal choice - if everyone had the money to upgrade then tour operators wouldn't need an 'economy' section!!!
Happy travels and best of luck for a successful rental year!!

[Carla]

quote:
The vast majority of fly drive clients renting villas privately, use MyTravel, Monarch, plus the 'big boys'. If you are not residents but use your Florida villa as a holiday home, then it is likely you yourself use one of these to visit. These are TOUR OPERATORS!!!

Wrong again. Only one of my Brit guests has arrived at Sanford. All the others fly into Orlando (or Tampa) which doesn't handle Charters.

I have only used Charters to Florida twice, and that was quite some time ago before I actually realised that they were:

a. more expensive than the equivalent scheduled flights
b. much less room in economy than any of the scheduled flights
c. service was nowhere near as good as any of the scheduled flights and you have to pay a fortune for everything that you might want to eat or drink during the flight, and
d. restrictive on length of time that you could visit Orlando for.

So now we always "upgrade" and fly economy with a scheduled airline for less money. QED. :D

[blott]

quote:What I will ask - and this is also for anyone else of a similar mind to Blott - whose planes do you think bring the stream of clients to our villas? The vast majority of fly drive clients renting villas privately, use MyTravel, Monarch, plus the 'big boys'. If you are not residents but use your Florida villa as a holiday home, then it is likely you yourself use one of these to visit. These are TOUR OPERATORS!!! Now in my opinion that suggests that, contrary to Blott's submission, a heavy reliance is placed on tour operators. Whether you use them for the actual supply of rental clients is irrelevant. Case rests!!! Oh dear, wrong again villaowner! I personally have never flown with a charter airline to Florida and only around 1% of my guests do. Unlike you, I do actually know that and I'm not making any conjecture here. OK, so how do I know? Charter airlines fly, in the main, to Sanford airport whilst scheduled airlines fly to Orlando International. One's much nearer to the homes rented in the area and the other is miles away. Guess which one I get asked for driving directions from? As you say, case rests!!!

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

Virtually all our guests use scheduled flights into Orlando, Tampa or even Miami. Less than 2% of them use the charters into Sanford, so you are wrong again in your assertions "Villa Owner"!


quote:Originally posted by villaowner

whose planes do you think bring the stream of clients to our villas? The vast majority of fly drive clients renting villas privately, use MyTravel, Monarch

[Biggus]

John,
Just out of interest, is this the longest thread EVER on the open forum - don't know what goes on behind closed 'owners section' in the history of OV.com? With over 2500 posters reading this and extending into 5 pages - I think that 'villaowner' has at least created a lengthy if rather 'heated' discussion!! AND NO I'M NOT DEFENDING HIM - I still think he makes too many sweeping astatements from the wrong side of the fence. With a large hint of cynicism, I think that he has too many deep seated personal opinions that he will not compromise, me thinks an alterior motive is afoot - pity he is trying to preach to the wrong audience!!

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

I think you might be right there Biggus :D.

[villaowner]

Sorry guys, why does the destination airport matter so much to you? Why does it matter whether it's a charter flight or scheduled? I can't believe you are missing the point entirely!!! Do tour operators only fly into Sanford??
BA, Virgin etc, are still TOUR OPERATORS, who you have persistently claimed not to need!!!! Delta, Continental etc don't have the amount of lift needed to supply the whole demand, so at some stage UK based tour operators HAVE to be utilised. Is that so hard to grasp? Whether you feel that charters offer an inferior service to scheduled is a valid opinion but not one I'm disputing. The charter 'economy' service provides an essential lift for certain clients in exactly the same way as scheduled service does for other clients.
Like I said, whichever one you use - or your clients use - is irrelevant, I wasn't using a 'who or which is best' argument, just pointing out that tour operators, like it or not, are an important factor in the success of our rental program.
I await with fascination, news that over half a million Florida visitors per annum can travel without the input of tour operators............until that day, case rests!!

[mm69340]

quote:Originally posted by villaowner

mm69340 - please read the above, if you feel I'm highlighting negativity rather than bringing to the table a serious subject that could affect many prospective owners and renters, fair enough - that's your opinion. You may not want this subject aired for reasons of your own - who knows. But the main beneficiaries of such information would be renters and buyers - and if you would seek to deny this information being made available to them, just to score points, then that speaks volumes.


I must have been changing diapers than when you posted about all the room a villa has to offer, the great aspect of having a private pool. The convience of your own kitchen, DVD/VCR's all that good stuff.

I don't deny anyone information. Information is power and can help make good decisions- but you aren't making any decisions. You are throwing questions out there that if you have access to records could quote yourself.

And if YOU would read threads more closely- my name is KAREN not mm69340. I live in Massachusetts and am a PROUD mother of 6 chilren!

[florida4sun]

I think you are totally missing the point. Some tour ops are great to deal with, the one mentioned in this thread has somewhat of a poor reputation with quailty of service. From proffesional and personal experience I would not deal with them.
I deal with tour ops and take tour op bookings, but only from those who play by my rules.
I do get your point that without tour ops there would be less flights. Then again everything is based on demand, so if there is demand there is supply.





quote:Originally posted by villaowner

Sorry guys, why does the destination airport matter so much to you? Why does it matter whether it's a charter flight or scheduled? I can't believe you are missing the point entirely!!! Do tour operators only fly into Sanford??
BA, Virgin etc, are still TOUR OPERATORS, who you have persistently claimed not to need!!!! Delta, Continental etc don't have the amount of lift needed to supply the whole demand, so at some stage UK based tour operators HAVE to be utilised. Is that so hard to grasp? Whether you feel that charters offer an inferior service to scheduled is a valid opinion but not one I'm disputing. The charter 'economy' service provides an essential lift for certain clients in exactly the same way as scheduled service does for other clients.
Like I said, whichever one you use - or your clients use - is irrelevant, I wasn't using a 'who or which is best' argument, just pointing out that tour operators, like it or not, are an important factor in the success of our rental program.
I await with fascination, news that over half a million Florida visitors per annum can travel without the input of tour operators............until that day, case rests!!

[Carla]

Do you tell your guests that they will have to travel for over an hour just to get anywhere near the Disney area from Sanford airport?

Of course the airport matters otherwise we'd all be happy to fly into anywhere in the States and just drive down. Why fly to an airport which is further away from where you want to be AND pay more for that flight?

BA and Virgin are scheduled airlines who just happen to have a branch of their company which sells package holidays as well. The last thing that most of us would want to do is to book through these branches as they would insist that we also rented their "free" car!! As everyone knows a "free" car costs you so much more than hiring one from a direct source, as they very heavily load the insurances, which you have to take.

Neither Virgin nor BA have ever tried to sell me anything other than a flight when I contact the airline (nor have any of the American owned scheduled airlines either). The companies are separate although BA Holidays obviously use their own scheduled flights whenever possible, as does Virgin.

You keep dodging the original issue though; why are TCD planes so old and worn and why is the service on the planes so bad?

[villaowner]

No issue dodging here, we are always interested to learn of any problems in order to provide a better service.
No company requiring additional planes would go to the expense of buying new planes, if used planes were readily available. The planes had been regularly and properly maintained and continue to be so. I am sure the CAA would be more than willing to supply supporting information to put people's minds at rest. I accept - as would any tour operator - that 100% satisfaction is hard to achieve, and we fall short occasionally in the same way as others. No excuses - we're all fallible and when we get things wrong we try to improve to prevent it happening again.
The planes have been refurbed prior to this season's flights, perhaps we'll get more favourable reports throughout the year. In any case, 1 in 4 Florida holidaymakers are travelling with us (official figures) currently, so a) the service wouldn't appear to be as bad as some suggestions,
and b) quite a lot of mainstream tour operators would love to be as 'small' as us!!
I agree, this thread is the longest-running I've seen for a while, so I'll let the calm return!!

[athurstance]

Gosh, according to the National Statistics office 44 million people visited Florida in 2002 - no wonder TCD's planes are a bit worn out.

[chrizzy100]

quote:Originally posted by blott

On the subject of health and safety of guests, the majority of home owners have had no problem either with the security of their home or their community. Our home, along with many others, has a monitored security alarm and a safe available for guests (not because we're expecting problems but just as an additional customer service to our guests), should any of them be concerned, although why they should be any more concerned in Florida than at home, as you are suggesting, is totally ridiculous.

Personally, as someone not keen on flying in the first place, I'd be far more worried about getting on a plane which another airline has decided to dispose of and wondering about the servicing that a minor company can provide for it. Sure, I expect some passengers would prefer to save money on their flights but certainly not me! I prefer to pay a reasonable price, travel on a scheduled major airline, land in the airport of my choice and not experience delays.

It's a bit like the discussion before with renting a home isn't it? If guests don't care where they stay, in what home, without the benefit of copious info and take a chance on what standard and equipped home they get, then that's their choice and good luck to them (they're probably going to need it). It's precisely the same with flying and other components of their holiday. You want cheap, you pay cheap and you get cheap, although whether that gives you a good holiday, never mind the 'holiday of a lifetime' is a matter for conjecture.



I also have a monitored security alarm..and we don't have break in on the Cape....having one does not mean the area is dangerous....:)

[Carla]

95% of visitors to Florida are Americans, so wouldn't need a transatlantic flight!! :D:D

In some small way I feel sorry for the Tour Ops because their market is diminishing and they are constantly at war with each other over prices. Corners get cut all the time, just to try and get those prices down even further.

Lets just hope that we do hear better things of TCD this year.:D:D

[phil moloney]

Destination airports matter a lot to me. I have not booked TCD. Am I understanding you correctly? Do you only fly to Stanford? I plan on going on my holidays. To travel from Stanford is one of the worst things I could think of. Imagine that journey after getting off an aircraft! I guess if it was a comfortable flight that would be OK. Am i asking too muck here: see i'm more into designer numbers than chain stores and i'd hate to travel on an old aircraft. I like to spend my money not waste it! There are good airlines, good aircraft and good value out there.
Please honest villa owners tell me before I book are TCD plans that old and worn? It is easy for guests to find the right villa and be able to talk to the guest but the dangerous of booking a package scare me! What is the security like on these aircraft? especially after reading about the dangers of the airline mentioned above. I guess i know it is difficult to come out and be honest but it is a long trip away from home with a family we need to be protected en route too. The bottom line is GO FOR Quality. You get what you Pay for. Next stop www.orlandoflights.com with privately owned aircraft cutting out the middle man giving a high standard personnal servivce! For further details watch this site!

[Vron]

Wow, what a lot of very angry people!! Well thanks a lot guys ..... I'm REALLY looking forward to taking my family to Florida! Booked it all myself [no travel agent involved] is that good or bad? Flying T.C.D. [sounds like another big mistake] from Manchester {will I need to contact Fred Flintstone Carla for instructions on how to fly the plane? We're flying direct to Sanford sounds but this sounds like another big mistake! [mind you it only took us 45 minutes last time, and I have to admit, as it was our very first visit, and I did all the driving whilst we were there, it was a fantastic introduction to driving in the USA.] We booked our villa individually - is it going to be second rate, or fall down round us, or are we going to get burgalled as soon as we get there? So ..... before we fly out in August, does anyone ANYTHING good to say about TCD and/or Sanford? or will my family and die just die painfully from all this vitriol that seems to exist between villa owners. I REALLY enjoy this site, and although I don't post very often, I visit daily and DO get a lot of information. I don't feel as though this has happened in this discussion - there has been a lot of opinion, a fair amount of sweeping statements. PLEASE! is TCD THAT bad - do I seriously need to think about cancelling my flight. Carla, you seem to know a lot about this company - have you flown with them this year? If so, how did you find them? I apologise for continuing this 'conversation' but I AM extremely concerned now about the state of TCD. Is it as bad as Carla makes out?

[Chris7]

I've always flown into Sanford as a friend told me that Orlando is so big it can take longer to get through immigration/baggage claim/car hire etc than the extra 20 mins driving from Sanford. I can't speak for TCD but I've always found Sanford to be fine:)

[Ann]

hi
i have flown into Sanford a lot and i always find it no problem quicker to get through than orlando most of the time and the difference between the 2 airports to my house is about 10 minutes so i like Sanford
as for TC i have also flown with them several times had some great flights no problems but i have also had some dreadful flights with delays ect but then i guess you could say the same about all airlines and travel companys and public transport it is just your luck on the day that everything is running to time :Dand we take our chances after all if they are late there is not a lot we can do about it [^]

[Theresa]

I have flown into Sanford more times than Orlando and personally I prefer Sanford, as Chris states it is much quicker to get through security and immigration and the drive down isn't that bad.

As mentioned previously have flown with TCD on their own plane in August last year. Certainly wouldn't recommend that. Flown with Airtours on their Airbus - no problems.

I am sure that the plane I flew on in August should have been grounded as there must be a ratio of passengers to the number of working toilets. Only 2 toilets out of 6 working. Perhaps I should take the matter up with the CAA.

I have spoken to someone today - she travelled with TCD in August from Manchester. They were stuck on the runway at Manchester for 8 hours due to some technically fault with the plane. She is looking to travel with Virgin this year. So word does get around.

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

I've only ever flown myself into Sanford myself in a light aircraft so can't comment on that other than to say it was manic as Delta have their pilot academy there and the radio was constant babble - was very hard to get a word in to tell them I wanted to land at Sanford.

I do enjoy ariving at MCO - makes you feel like the holiday has started as the plane coasts in over the 528 and touches down on the runway...then that lovely warm feeling on your face when you transfer from the satellite terminal to the monorail...then the big Mickey with sorcerers hat outside the Disney store in the main terminal on the way to baggage collection. Would not miss it for the world :D. It's giving me a lovely warm feeling inside just thinking about it!

[blott]

I've never flown to Sanford as, like John and Sarah, we prefer Orlando International as it's nearer to our home. It's also got that amazing fountain or Christmas tree, depending on the time of year of course and we always look forward to see that after a long flight! That's not to say there's anything wrong with Sanford of course... it's your choice.

As I said earlier on in the thread, we've never flown with TCD as they failed to ring me back when I enquired about prices.


quote:We booked our villa individually - is it going to be second rate, or fall down round us, or are we going to get burgalled as soon as we get there? If you booked a home via an individual home owner, it's 99.9% certain it's not going to be any of those things and you're highly unlikely to be burgled in Florida, probably less so than in UK in fact.

If you cancel your flight now, you're almost bound to lose some money and also need to make sure that you can obtain alternative flights for your dates so I would think about those aspects first before you do anything hasty.

[floridadreamvilla.co.uk]

I'd forgotten about the Christmas Tree Blott - thanks for reminding me - I'm dreaming of Florida :D.

[blott]

Yeah, we're dreaming of a sunny Christmas too! ;)

[Carla]

Veronica, if you have booked through TCD and are going with another recognised company such as MyTravel or Brittania, then you will be fine. It is TCDs own planes and staff which have been the problem in the past. As villaowner stated though, the company has refurbished the planes and made major changes during the "closed" season, so they must have been aware of all of the problems. These changes should make a big difference and the standard should be higher for this Summer. Perhaps you could let us know, if travelling on one of their own planes, exactly what it was like? Everything that I wrote was true of last year, and if I were to tell you different then that would not be correct. No, I didn't fly with them last year, but I do personally know a number of home owners who did and that was the feedback that they gave me.

Please remember, Veronica, that the guy from TCD came onto this forum basically to attempt to undermine our efforts to rent our homes out directly to our own guests. His main purposes, I believe, were to upset our guests and make them think that they would have been better off by booking with a Tour Operator and to attempt to advertise TCD. As you will understand we could not sit back and let him do that when we know that the opposite is true. If he expected us to "roll over" then he was dealing with the wrong group of people!

He resurrected a thread on 17 June 2003 (coincidentally the same day that he joined this forum!!) that had last been posted to on 20 February 2003. His opening words were:

Sorry guys, I've read with disbelief the TCD comments. They take around 130,000 passengers a year (including my family) so must be doing something right. They are also the largest tour operator villa supplier. I'm not pro-TCD, just trying to balance things fairly.

What he omitted to mention was that he worked for TCD, so his last sentence, above, was a blatant lie. 130,000 passengers is only 8.6% of the 1.5 million people who flew from the UK to Florida last year and represents roughly 350 passengers per day, year round - a lot less than the average 747 can hold, so his claim that TCD is the largest tour operator villa supplier is difficult to swallow as well. Of course his family travels with TCD to Florida - staff perks often include either free or very heavily discounted flights for employees (and their immediate families) who work for an airline. I can't help wondering if his employers have seen his various postings on this thread yet and what they might think???

You have booked your villa individually, direct from the owner, Veronica, and I am positive that it will be wonderful. You will have seen pictures and know exactly what you are going to find when you arrive. There are very few burglaries, and you really do not need to worry, just take the normal sensible precautions that you would wherever in the world you would travel to on holiday.

Sanford airport is very easy to get through both on arrival and departure and all car hire is on airport. It has been designed with holiday makers in mind. However if you have a late afternoon flight back to the UK, you may want to eat lunch at a restaurant before you arrive at Sanford, as the food facilities there are very basic and the food is pretty awful.

I'm really sorry if any of my comments have upset you, or any other guests reading this thread, and that was certainly not what I had intended at all. I was merely trying to point out, particularly to villaowner, that TCD sell cheaper because they don't offer the same service and amenities as the other charter and scheduled airlines and they rarely, if ever, rent to their guests the same high standard of villas as you will find listed on this web site.

I am sure that you will be safe on a TCD plane. You won't get the same level of service as you would on a scheduled airline, however if you know this in advance then you can plan for it, especially as you have young children. Take with you what you will need for them to eat and drink whilst on the plane, then you will ha

[Julieb]

I have booked my first flight with TCD from Cardiff in July flying with My Travel. Fingers crossed it goes OK. I have only been with BA & Virgin in the past.Flying from an airport 15 minutes away and much cheaper than flying from Gatwick was an opportunity not to miss!

We used tour operator bookings in our villa during the first year and we are still waiting to be paid for 4 weeks rentals!Thats was over 2 years ago.

[gilly]

I've been following this particular forum with interest.

We've been really looking forward to our holiday in Florida for over a year now and with less than 2 weeks to go I'm seriously beginning to worry (and I don't think);). Has Villaowner lost the plot or does he have an ulterior motive behind all his negative comments, is he trying to damage the real villa owners trade?

Well its too late to change our arrangements now. We'll just have to sit on our charter flight to Sanford with our fingers crossed and hope that we dont get burgled while we are there.[8D]

We're going to have a great time anyway, so if you did have an ulterior motive villaowner it isn't going to put us off.

[Goldland]

I am not a villa owner nor do I work in the travel industry so I feel I could put a balanced view on this topic. I think the biggest thing that has been overlooked is that we the public have not always got a choice. I for one would always fly scheduled if I could afford to but unfortunately as I have 2 kids and my husband and I have "average" income jobs we simply cannot afford the sort of money the schedule airlines charge. Off season the difference in price between schedule and charter are nominal but if you have school aged kids and therefore have to travel in peak times the price difference is huge.
I am lucky enough to have access to the internet at home and at work so can spend the time searching for the best prices on flights and villas etc but for alot of people this really isn't an option so booking the whole thing with a travel agent/tour operator is their only choice. I get the feeling from reading the threads that alot of you villa owners have forgotten what a minefield it is trying to sort out your first ever Orlando holiday. A work colleague of mine owns a villa in Southern Dunes and therefore she was able to point me in the right direction but without her help I would have struggled to say the least.

The point I am trying to make is that there is a need for charter companies (a point that was made earlier) and I worry that if people who can't afford to fly scheduled will read some of the previous comments and may well decide against going to Florida completely rather than fly charter. All airlines must maintain their planes to a high standard or they would not be able to fly over British or American airspace. My sister is a pilot for a West Indian airline (BWIA) and believe me their planes have seen better days most are over 30 years old but they are all completely safe if they weren't they would never be allowed to fly into British/American airspace also the pilots wouldn't risk their lives attempting to fly them the 4,000 miles or so accross the atlantic.

To sum up the point that I am trying to make is that if your finances will only allow you to book charter then go for it. The planes may be a little older than the scheduled airlines but they WILL be safe. Booking your accommodation direct is definitely better but only use sites such as this one to find that perfect villa and do your homework. All villa owners with nothing to hide will be more than happy to provide references from previous guests and will answer any queries/concerns you may have. The law of averages though does say that there will always be someone whose experience does not live up to there expectations and will have something to complain about.

I am flying out with airtours and I realise that the flight will not be 9 hours of luxury but having cost some £800 less than Virgin (for all 4 of us) I am willing to grin and bear it. If, however, I win the lottery before we go:D I will definitely be canceling my airtours flight and booking Virgin premium Economy!! I have booked my villa direct with the owner and have got a great rate and am also staying in a hotel for a few days and have booked that direct too. It took me 3-4 weeks of trawling the internet to put my package together and luckily I am a regular user of the internet and search engines etc. but for many I realise that going into a travel agent and having a deal put together for you in a few minutes is the only option and one that should never be undermined.

Lastly can I just say that I love forums like this that give orlando virgins like me a chance to get expert help from the more experienced but please remember that we can't all fly scheduled and I for one have felt that alot of the comments made me feel a bit second rate for flying charter and has somewhat taken the shine off of my excitement. Lets hope that anyone reading this that has already booked a complete package through a travel agent/tour operator will not feel the same after all the flight/accommodation is only a small percentage of the entire Orlando experience.

[Carla]

Be happy with your choice Goldland. You've saved a lot of money which you can spend when in Florida!! The difference in what you paid for your Airtours flights rather than Virgin scheduled flights will easily pay for a 7 day Park hopper for each of you to Disney. :D:D

None of the owners on here have anything against Charter flights, in fact we have probably almost all used Charters at one time or another, and will continue to do so. Like you, most of us shop around for the best deal. We'd rather spend our money on adding to our homes than paying a lot for a flight!! It is TCD and their own planes that have caused this furore, not Charter companies in general!!

Just as a tip for other guests, if you know well in advance that you wish to fly to Orlando, then start looking for your flights as soon as they are released for sale to the public, which is around 11 months before departure date. This is generally when the cheapest scheduled flights are available, for the early bookers. Once the airlines have sold the seats that were put aside for early bookers, at a discounted price, then the prices begin to rise quite rapidly. This is particularly important if you intend to travel during peak times as they often set their later prices according to the initial demand for seats.

It doesn't matter how you get there, just so long as once you are there, you have a fantastic time. :D:D

I shall look forward to reading your family trip report. :D:D

[fiona]

We used to fly charter flights to Europe for our holidays all the time. However I have never found a charter flight cheaper than a scheduled one for the times we go - school holidays. We too shop around and use the cheapest flight we can get, we use travel agents, internet sites, or direct with the airlines.

We no longer fly Virgin as haven't found any decent priced flights for years, but often use BA. We have flown AA, TWA and Delta as well. As we try and visit our villa a couple of times a year (hopefully more when we can go out of peak season) we never aim to spend more than £400, and it is often considerably less. We are also not bothered about flying into Miami and driving up because it suits us to go from Heathrow rather than Gatwick, so we do have that advantage.

[athurstance]

I always look at both scheduled and charter prices and have never found a charter flight cheaper than scheduled. In fact they always seem to be very expensive.
The cheapest flights seem to be the indirect ones flying with a US airline - we are trying this next year flying with American Airlines. The other big advantage of the scheduled flights for me is the seat-back tv.

[MTP]

In following this tread it seems to me that for flights and holiday arrangements then there are options to suit every need and desire, covering all ends of the spectrum from complete independant booking through to complete packages holidays. There are reasons for this and long may it continue. This will allow for everyone's precious vacation needs to be catered for, we all work far too much and our holidays should be enjoyable and relaxing times, especially if taken with those near and dear to us.

One of the key factors has to be information. For those that want it informed choice can make for a great improvement in the enjoyment and financial factors of their holiday, and it is in this area that the internet comes in to its own. These forums are a shining light of that. The thought, therefore, that villaowner is taking this information and using it for financial gain and also perhaps to portray that his/her knowledge is extensive to potential customers does grate a little. I will not begrudge villaowner making a sale to earn a living, we all have to earn money, but I doubt that (s)he will be saying to clients "thankyou for booking your holiday and I would recommend that you visit the web site www.orlandovillas.com for great information".

I also am a little unhappy with the wild swings in topics that villaowner has made, each one would have made for a separate and interesting thread. I know I have posted off-topic questions in threads, but I usually try to clearly mark it as such and it is usually because of something said in that thread.

Anyway, that's my thoughts for this evening.

Best wishes,

Euan

[villaowner]

I had intended my last submission to be the final one, but I have to correct 1 or 2 points in fairness to all the people who have booked or hoping to book a Florida villa holiday - whether TCD are integral or not. Opinions are fine - but that doesn't make them fact.
Firstly, I am happy to acknowledge that the villas to rent via this site are likely to be of a VERY high standard. Owners DO take pride in their homes and rely quite a bit on word of mouth to get bookings - so consequently look after their guests. There, that should stop this opinion that I'm anti-this site and its contributors!!
I must also advise that tour operators who consistently provide sub-standard villas deserve to lose business to either competitors or the direct market. It is no coincidence that the last 2 years has seen TCD offer more named executive villas on sub-divisions such as Windsor Palms, Emerald Island, Highlands Reserve, Lake Berkley etc rather than the 'old' system of allocated on arrival. This is a change that is also being implemented by other tour operators - because complaints are much reduced - and is a direct response to the quality of homes being offered on sites such as this. So take a bow, owners have definitely raised villa standards and people's expectations have also risen - which is a good thing as it keeps both tour operators and owners on their toes.
It is official figures that support that 1 in 4 package holiday bookers from the UK are currently booking with TCD.
I agree up to a point that TCD do not offer the same service as scheduled fights - for a start that claim has never been made! And I very much doubt that any other charter tour operator would make this claim either. I would suggest though, a comparison of the seat pitches available if that is an important factor - a surprise may be in store.
Also, advising people travelling on a TCD charter to take drinks etc for kids - due to the cost - is unnecessary, as TCD charters include all meals (extra with some other airlines) AND drinks (very rare on charters).
Finally - and this is in no way an admission!! - I am sure that everyone would take advantage of subsidised flights if they were on offer, in the same way as bank workers have previously used their own bank with its subsidised mortgages. In many cases it eventually comes down to price - which is precisely why ALL tour operator charters fulfil an important role, and what my original point was about.
It's about choice, be aware of the alternatives but accept that there's a market for all.
It's been an interesting week and I sign off with best wishes for everyone involved!!

[steph_goodrum]

"So take a bow, owners have definitely raised villa standards and people's expectations have also risen - which is a good thing as it keeps both tour operators and owners on their toes."

Now if we could only get the tour oprators to raise the rates PAID TO THE OWNER to reflect the high quality and standards, rather than the profit margins to all the middlemen, then we might be getting somewhere.

[Matt]

I'd just like ask two questions on the matter of tour operator villas.

1. If us owners wanted to market our homes via a tour operator, how do you go about it? Not that I want to, just curious. Or is it done through the MC that a particular owner is with?

2. Is it not true that a number of villas are actually owned by the tour operators. The last time I was in Florida (which was only two weeks ago, but seems like two years!!), I was told of a new development, where nearly half of the villas were being bought by Virgin Holidays.

If this is the case, then a tour operator owned villa would obviously not be looked after as well as one owned and maintained by a private owner. Hence cheaper prices, and cheaper quality accommodation that isn't looked after properly.

That was it then, my two points/questions on the subject.

Matt

[fiona]

The management companies put a quote forward to the tour operators, and they tour operators then award a MC the contract. If there is an overflow they go to MC's they have contacts with. Our old MC used to take them, our new one very rarely does.

It may well be true that some companies like Virgin would own their own villas, why pay owners when you can own them yourself. Downside is they have to run the villas all year round.

[athurstance]

Matt,
As far as I know Tour Operators usually deal direct with the management companies rather than owners. So if you were keen to be on their list you would need to choose an MC who deals with them.
I don't believe Virgin or any other tour operator actually own any villas - although I can't categorically say this is the case. My previous MC used to deal with them and other tour operators and it is my understanding they rent villas owned by individuals.
For the guest - tour operator villas are usually more expensive. It is because there are 2 extra people (tour operator and MC) taking their percentage that the villa owner gets less.
The problem really is that if you get constantly low rates for your villa then many owners can't afford to maintain them properly and over time they will become shabbier and have less extras than owners who book theirs direct. Now that doesn't mean you will get a terrible villa through a tour operator - nobody is suggesting that at all.
I do believe however that you will get a more luxurious villa with more extras (which do not have an extra charge), closer to disney and a much much more personal service by booking direct. The tour operators have lots of very nice villas so it shouldn't concern someone if they are booked this way. Lets face it most of us have used a tour operator at some time in our lives and although I personally prefer more independent arrangements these days I still think a villa booked through a tour operator is a better holiday arrangement than a hotel.
Staying in a villa in Florida is just so much better than any hotel. All that space, your own pool - I just love lazing in the jacuzzi in the evenings knowing that there is no chance of lots of other guests squeezing in with me - and absolutely no chance of it being so packed I can't get a space. I would like to say that there are no children splashing me as I float on my lilo in the pool - but this is my fault as I take them with me - and at least I can splash them back!!!!!!!!

[Matt]

Angela, by the end of your response their it started to sound like you were drifting off into the world of your villa:D

I know what you mean though. When I used to stay in hotels, I never used to get in the pool because of all the kids and a million other people in there (not that I have anything against kids!!).

But now I have my own home, I don't get out of the pool (have to have the heat full on though[:I]a bit of a wuss when it comes to getting in a cold pool)

Anyway, thats moved away from the point of this thread so will leave that one there.

Matt

[janny]

I have just been reading on another forum, a thread about TCD and how they will not let you travel in their sunshine first class unless you have booked accommodation with them as well.It smacks a bit of discrimination and they are not getting a good "press" over it.

[hyte1]

I believe that this is correct, I phoned them for a quote last week and was told that the sunshine deck was really only for people who had booked accomodation with them. Has anyone returned for Florida with TCD yet? Im interested to find out their experience. Also Ive been on their website and Im sure it was £99 to upgrade to the sunshine deck? This has now increased?

[MrEktion]

I am a newbie here but I have travelled to Florida with TCD on 2 occasions.

Firstly with a cheap ticket in July 2000, £253 Fly-drive, Out Virgin (Good) and back Monarch (Dire as you'd expect) but for £253 in July from Manchester what do you want. Secondly in 2002 with them on the European 747's again from Man to Sanford this time for £279 Fly-drive.

Whilst the planes are old ex-BA 747's they have got one thing in their favour over other charters - the seat pitch is 31" as per the old BA scheduled seats. This is 3" more than Monarch,Thomas Cook, MyTravel etc. and the same as BA and Virgin Economy. Virgin prices from Manchester (scheduled non-stop monopoly!) are usually £200-300 per seat above TCD so the only non-stop cheap alternative is a charter.

My experience of European was of equal standard to any charter I had flown before but with slightly more leg room (important to me as I am 6'2"). In all I would say TCD is a cheap option with some comfort and no frills, but adequate for the price. BTW Food, Drinks and Headsets are all complimentary unlike some charters but IFE means a projector screen on the bulkhead unless you are in 'Sunshine First'

I think the 'Sunshine Upper Deck' is a £99 surcharge and you get very little extra. Leg room is the same as economy, food, drinks IFE all the same as above. You get 10Kg more baggage but you can double baggage in Economy to 40Kg for £15. I think you also get priority boarding.

The Sunshine First is a little better you get bigger seats 54" pitch and IFE in the seat plus a few other bits like extra baggage, priority board etc. But its a £249 surcharge so in my case would have doubled my fare.

If you have to book accommodation to get these upgrades then they are definately not worth it, much better to deal direct with the villa owner and travel economy on the flight if you choose TCD.

I am travelling with them again in September, but making the rest of my arrangements independantly and I have saved a considerable amount over the scheduled alternatives or if I had let TCD do all the booking.

Other people looking to use TCD should note they had two aircraft operating in Manchester when I was last there in June one in the white, black and yellow colour scheme described earlier in this thread. The other in an all white livery with blue European flag on the tail. This is presumably the refurbished plane mentioned by Villaowner.

Hope all this waffle helps people make a choice. I'll let you all know if I have a different experience in September.

MrEktion

[stephen williams]

Just done a quick survey on my past guests and found that over 80% have used TCD in the last two years. Without them I could not rent my villa , their prices are so much cheaper than the rest ie £159 January, Feb. I have paid £270 this October to fly from Cardiff and I booked this 1 year ago. I have also booked my flight for the 15 July 04 again direct from Cardiff £500, over £650 from London with BA or Virgin. I always gives out their phone no to guests, and I would like to thank TCD for the sevice they provide.
steve

[steph_goodrum]

Steve
I've paid £270 to fly with Virgin this October (27th) so they aren't always the cheapset option + plus we'll be another 8,600 Freeway miles closer to another free trip so it pays to shop around and try and stagerr dates away from school hols. In our case the difference between flying on Sat 25th (£550) and monday 27th (£270) it just means our daughter will miss the week after half term instead of the week before.