View Full Version : Insurance
josephinekelly
25-08-2004, 15:04
Just wondered what the situation would be if a villa was rendered unhabitable by adverse weather, fire or Act of God as they describe it? If the rental was paid up front before such an event, would it be up to the owner to refund the money, or to the renter to try to claim it back on their insurance? What is the normal procedure in cases like these?
I would have thought the Renter would have to claim off their insurance, but others may
know for sure what would happen
huckleberry house
25-08-2004, 15:10
Hi Josephine
Has this happened to a home you have booked ? I would advise you to check the terms and conditions of your agreement and contact the owner concerned who presumably will do their best to locate another home for you. It is always advisable to cover all possibilities with good holiday insurance to cover cancellations etc. I expect most owners agreements are in line with the majority of holiday companies and travel agents.
Lesley
Nostromo
25-08-2004, 15:17
My guess is that the owner's insurance would cover all damage to the property and contents the same as our own houses, although I suspect the premiums for holiday homes will be higher. The visitor's travel insurance, assuming it is a comprehensive one, should cover any damage sustained to people or their possessions by natural events and catastrophes.
josephinekelly
25-08-2004, 17:54
No it would seem the villa we have rented for next month has only minor damage, but the possibility for a number of days that it could be unavailable, did cause me to check my travel insurance. This is with the Natwest Bank which is quite a reputable institution. They state that they would definitely not pay out for any cancellation or curtailment of holiday due to adverse weather conditions, industrial action or act of terrorism etc. Not good enough really - hence my question of whether the owners insurance would cover refunds if their property was not fit for habitation. Obviously the airline tickets would have to be used if no payout would be made on the travel policy. Which leaves a renter possibly paying twice for accommodation if they are lucky enough to find some alternative at the last minute.
There is nothing in the rental contract I have which covers such a contingency and although I am lucky this time, it is something I will give consideration to next time. I suppose on the face of it, the owner contracts to provide accommodation for the renter and if this is not forthcoming for any reason, then I would have thought the insurance of the owner would cover refunding monies paid. Certainly the travel policy I have doesn't cover this, although I do now accept there are probably better policies available.
ctgirlscout
25-08-2004, 18:44
I think it would depend on the individual owner, as most owners' policies do not cover loss of rental income. Our villa had no power for 24 hours, and although my guests tried to find alternative accommodations, they could not and stayed in the house anyway. We ended up compensating them for the one day, even though we do have a clause in our contract covering "Acts of God".
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by josephinekelly
There is nothing in the rental contract I have which covers such a contingency and although I am lucky this time, it is something I will give consideration to next time. [/quote] It's really unusual not to have something in your contract in the Terms and Conditions about this. Are you sure it doesn't say anything about 'force majeure' (which means a superior or overpowering force or an unexpected or uncontrollable event) somewhere?
I am a U.S. insurance broker. In insurance terms an "Act of God" as you described would be a covered peril under most DP3 policies which most of the STR policies are written. Some can be endorsed to cover the "loss of use" coverage that would pay the owner of the property for loss of rents due to a covered peril (windstorm). So, if the house was damaged and unrentable for a period of time the owner could potentially recover from his own STR policy. Most STR policies have high hurricane deductibles so the down period would have to be a longer time period in order for the loss to exceed the deductible. There is no source of recovery for the renter through the owners STR policy.
The only recourse for the renter would be to try and work something out with the owner or Travel Insurance. I am not real familiar with travel insurance so my advice would be to read the policy for the exclusions which I am sure are many. Hope this helps.
huckleberry house
25-08-2004, 19:32
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by jmack
I am a U.S. insurance broker. In insurance terms an "Act of God" as you described would be a covered peril under most DP3 policies which most of the STR policies are written. Some can be endorsed to cover the "loss of use" coverage that would pay the owner of the property for loss of rents due to a covered peril (windstorm). So, if the house was damaged and unrentable for a period of time the owner could potentially recover from his own STR policy. Most STR policies have high hurricane deductibles so the down period would have to be a longer time period in order for the loss to exceed the deductible. There is no source of recovery for the renter through the owners STR policy.
The only recourse for the renter would be to try and work something out with the owner or Travel Insurance. I am not real familiar with travel insurance so my advice would be to read the policy for the exclusions which I am sure are many. Hope this helps.
[/quote]
Only over and above the hurricane deductible figure though which is incredibly high in most policies and would still most likely result in the owner payng for most minor repairs.
Lesley
josephinekelly
25-08-2004, 21:28
This would appear to be a really grey area and I have a feeling both owners and renters will bear this in mind after the terrible damage suffered. I think I understand what is being said, but it still seems to me that the major loser would be the renter if not refunded as the money has been paid for nothing at all, whereas the owner has received it to cover that period of time.
If I were an owner, I think I would maybe offer a freebie for another time, but as you say, it would be up to an agreement between the two parties. I think I shall look much more carefully at my travel policy than I have done in the past. It is just too much of a loss to bear if accommodation has been paid for in full and is not forthcoming.
huckleberry house
25-08-2004, 22:11
In all honesty there is more likelihood of getting at least a partial refund from a private home owner than there is from a high street travel agency who certainly wouldnt give any sort of refund under a force majeure situation.They will also have received money for a holiday but be under no obligation to offer a refund.
Likewise neither will the airlines nor the travel insurance companies be likely to cover these kind of events and they are going to stand very firm by their conditions,so yes it does fall down to the renter as they did pay for the holiday. The home owner is also equally unlikely to want to be out of pocket either hence why they include these items in their terms and conditions. Short of not going on holiday full stop I cant see any way of avoiding the very rare chance that such an event may take place- where ever you may be travelling.
Lesley
A friend of mine was in Florida when the hurricane hit(it was her50th Birthday!!) actually on the day of the hurricane so all her plans were ruined. They were without power from Fri till they left on Monday and the management co never came near them.
They really did suffer loss of enjoyment of the last4 days of the holiday, but no one has contacted them since they returned. It was not a rental off this site but it is british owned. The owners are new to renting, should they compensate for the problems?
huckleberry house
26-08-2004, 15:45
Hi Poet
Sorry to hear of your friends experiences, hopefully she had a good time before the hurricane. I am surprised and dismayed that neither the manager or the owner has contacted her since the events, I cant believe any owner on these forums would have acted in that way but as you say they are new to renting maybe they are a little unsure of how to deal with this event. I am not excusing them though, I dont believe they have acted fairly to your friend.
What I can say is that many homes were left without power and some without water as well .The weather is something that nobody can be held responsible for however and I am sure there would have been nothing that could have been done with so many homes affected alternative accommodation would probably have not been available and the hotels that could operate were already overfull.The power companies did all they could to ensure power was returned quickly and I am amazed at how well they managed.Again though as no-one can be held responsible for the hurricane and the consequences I really dont see how the owner can be expected to offer compensation.I would advise her to check her terms and conditions of both the rental and her travel insurance to see if there is any mention of compensation for such events and I would also invite her to contact the owner to complain about the manager and the lack of contact both from them and the owner.The owner may be willing to offer something as a goodwill gesture without being obliged to.
Lesley
HI Lesley!!
Actualy it wouildnt even have occured to me about compensation until I read the post from CTSCOUT above. My friend has not even thought about this aspect, it was the fact that they felt "abandoned" by the Man Co that concerned them.
Their villa suffered minor damage but across the road one caved in completely with people in it!
No one is responsible of hurricanes, you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. When we rented on Captiva we rented privately,but if we had rented therough a rental agent like ROyal Shell they actually have hurricane ins built into the rental agreements, as it happened the week after we came home fortunately we were not affected. I would be really interested to know what the RS renters got by way of assistance and compensation for their premium.
huckleberry house
26-08-2004, 16:49
Hi Poet
I agree. the lack of contact is the most worrying aspect and as an owner something that I would very much want to know about as it isnt good enough. Your friend must consider herself lucky considering the damage to the other home, or luckier at any rate.
I dont know of the company you mention so cant really comment about their insurance coverage. All I can say is that as an owner of one home and therefore with limited income there is a limit to what can be provided and paid for without raising rental rates so high as to make them unattractive. Maybe the agency you mention has enough houses to spread the cost ?
It does appear that private owners seem to be held to be liable for mishaps like a hurricane whereas I believe many people would accept that large organisations such as Airlines and Travel Agents/ Tour operators are not liable and they are very unlikely to shift their postion.A private owner with limited income is in a far worse position than any large tour operator and probably far less able to carry the can for the hurricane. They may also be suffering from paying out for repairs and losing their next guests because of damage sustained and losing their major income neither of which will be returned under most insurance cover because of very high dedcuctibles and yet I suspect that the private owner is more likely to offer some compensation, whether monetary or otherwise, whereas can you imagine trying to claim a refund from ( actually better not mention any names but think of any high street travel company and you will get the picture )
The difference being that the private owner cares about their guests, but I cannot see how they could be held to be liable for a hurricane so any discount has to be given by the discretion of the owner and not treated as a right simply because they are a small operation.
Lesley
huckleberry house
26-08-2004, 16:59
UPDATE
Poet, I have just looked at the company you mention and it would appear that they do not offer hurricane protection for their rental homes, indeed they recommend you take out a hurrican insurance policy for the precise reason that they are not liable. Presumably any guest concerned about this aspect ( athough please remember this is a very rare event ) could take out a similiar policy regardless of which home they rent and perharps this is the answer. I already recommend all of my guests take out travel insurance but I may now add this extra coverage guidance as well.The guest could then decide whether to pay the premium price to cover for this event.
This extract from their website
"Don't let cancellations, interruptions, or delays ruin your vacation. xxxxxxx offers optional vacation insurance on all reservations. This insurance covers unforeseen circumstances such as weather, illness or injury, and much more. This optional fee will appear on your confirmation once you've made the initial deposit on your accommodations. However, should you wish to decline the insurance, simply deduct the cost of the premium from your final payment.
For those of you who will be vacationing on the island between May and November, please note that this is hurricane season. Therefore, we recommend that you seriously consider purchasing trip insurance...in the unlikely event of a hurricane, you'll be glad you did. And remember, owners are not required to refund rent in the event of a voluntary or mandatory hurricane evacuation."
The final sentence says it all really.
Lesley
ctgirlscout
26-08-2004, 20:07
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by poet123
HI Lesley!!
Actualy it wouildnt even have occured to me about compensation until I read the post from CTSCOUT above. My friend has not even thought about this aspect, it was the fact that they felt "abandoned" by the Man Co that concerned them.
Their villa suffered minor damage but across the road one caved in completely with people in it!
No one is responsible of hurricanes, you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. When we rented on Captiva we rented privately,but if we had rented therough a rental agent like ROyal Shell they actually have hurricane ins built into the rental agreements, as it happened the week after we came home fortunately we were not affected. I would be really interested to know what the RS renters got by way of assistance and compensation for their premium.
[/quote]
I just want to make a clarification...even though my guests continued to stay in our villa without power, we gave them an extra day at the villa as a gesture of good will (no monetary compensation). We did not feel that we "owed" them compensation, since they still stayed in the villa. I think loss of use and loss of enjoyment are two different things. Sounded like your friends were still able to stay in the villa for four days, even though they had no power. This is certainly an inconvenience, but they were lucky enough to still have a roof over their heads--something many people did not. But in the end, it is up to the individual owners to decide if the circumstances warrant offering any kind of compensation.
ClanHarrison
27-08-2004, 00:58
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:Originally posted by huckleberry house
UPDATE
Poet, I have just looked at the company you mention...
This extract from their website
"Don't let cancellations, interruptions, or delays ruin your vacation. xxxxxxx offers optional vacation insurance on all reservations. This insurance covers unforeseen circumstances such as weather, illness or injury, and much more. This optional fee will appear on your confirmation once you've made the initial deposit on your accommodations. However, should you wish to decline the insurance, simply deduct the cost of the premium from your final payment.
For those of you who will be vacationing on the island between May and November, please note that this is hurricane season. Therefore, we recommend that you seriously consider purchasing trip insurance...in the unlikely event of a hurricane, you'll be glad you did. And remember, owners are not required to refund rent in the event of a voluntary or mandatory hurricane evacuation."
The final sentence says it all really.
Lesley
[/quote]
Huckleberry: Please DM me the site that offers Travel Ins. to cover rent due to weather. Thanks!
Kim
Hi Lesley,
I understood the following
This optional fee will appear on your confirmation once you've made the initial deposit on your accommodations. However, should you wish to decline the insurance, simply deduct the cost of the premium from your final payment
For those of you who will be vacationing on the island between May and November, please note that this is hurricane season. Therefore, we recommend that you seriously consider purchasing trip insurance...in the unlikely event of a hurricane, you'll be glad you did. And remember, owners are not required to refund rent in the event of a voluntary or mandatory hurricane evacuation."
to mean that in the event of your trip being curtailed due to any event inc hurricane then if you had paid your premiunm and not had the optional payment removed from your invoice you would be covered.
I would doubt you could buy a stand alone hurricane policy,but I assumed this risk was covered by them because it was a very real risk in the area of their rentals and as such the monetary value was a quantifiable amount.
Is that not how you interpret the wording of this clause?
huckleberry house
27-08-2004, 01:49
Hi Poet
It goes on to say that the insurance policy is provided by xxx which is obviously a different company so certainly isnt one that they themselves operate and as it is optional then it couldnt really be classed as already being included in their rental fee, albeit that you have to opt out rather than in.
Surely this is only the same as here in the Uk where we would buy a seperate travel insurance policy ? Remember that in the US it is very, very rare for anyone to take out Travel insurance or in many cases many US guests have never even heard of it until they read my terms and conditions advising them to get it.There is also a comment that there will be various limitations and exclusions ( when isnt there !! ) and I could also read something into the statement that owners are not obliged to rehome you etc due to voluntary or mandatory evacuation to imply that this may be all that is covered rather than loss of power etc but I havent contacted the insurance company so I am only guessing.I cant imagine any insurance policy paying out completely because of as hurricane without limiting their liability in some way. I would also suggest that they offer this add on policy because while hurricane season obviously exists the actual risk is in fact low not high.
If I get the chance I will call the insurance company tomorrow and ask for the conditions of the insurance policy regarding hurricane cover and if it is feasible that it could be offered by owners I will certainly be recommending it from now on to my American guests at least, not sure they will cover UK guests, I shall see and update shortly.
Cheers, Lesley
Lesley,
The reason RS offer this policy is probably because their rentals are all on either Sanibel or Captiva which, as barrier Islands are most at risk. The risk inland is as you say minimal, mind you I would guess the premiums just shot up!!!!!!!!!!!!
I didnt know Americans dont normally take out ins, but I suppose its like us inthe UK taking a break in say Bournemouth and booking direct and not thinking about insurance as its not a package deal.
It would be interesting to find out the limitations of the policy,as you say it is most likely to be if you have to evacuate that payment would be made to cover alternative accom, assuming there is some available!!!!loss of power and enjoyment will probably not be covered.
The bottom line is these things happen and someone is not always liable, sometimes you just have to get on with it and bite the bullet!!!!but I suppose not everyone thinks like this, and if as a villa owner you give people the option to pay for even limited cover then you can do no more and have covered every eventuality!!!Whether they choose to take it is up to them
Lesley,
The reason RS offer this policy is probably because their rentals are all on either Sanibel or Captiva which, as barrier Islands are most at risk. The risk inland is as you say minimal, mind you I would guess the premiums just shot up!!!!!!!!!!!!
I didnt know Americans dont normally take out ins, but I suppose its like us inthe UK taking a break in say Bournemouth and booking direct and not thinking about insurance as its not a package deal.
It would be interesting to find out the limitations of the policy,as you say it is most likely to be if you have to evacuate that payment would be made to cover alternative accom, assuming there is some available!!!!loss of power and enjoyment will probably not be covered.
The bottom line is these things happen and someone is not always liable, sometimes you just have to get on with it and bite the bullet!!!!but I suppose not everyone thinks like this, and if as a villa owner you give people the option to pay for even limited cover then you can do no more and have covered every eventuality!!!Whether they choose to take it is up to them
I've just done some research and both esure and insureandgo both offer travel insurance policies that cover hurricanes for UK residents.
josephinekelly
27-08-2004, 11:31
Thank you for the research and I will certainly find a policy next time, whether offered by the owner or by UK travel insurance, which covers a villa becoming uninhabitable for any reason, as it is a shock to find out that you could lose all the money paid and get no accommodation which is a double loss.
I think airlines are different in that they will always get you on another flight as soon as possible if grounded due to strikes or damage. They would not of course pay if the decision not to fly was mine, ie if I decided not to go because there was no villa at the destination. If they couldn't offer a flight, then they do pay compensation and none of this involves the travel insurance policy. The car people offer alternative days if you have paid and cannot get there at the stated time, ie you can substitute two weeks hire at another time.
I think it would be an excellent idea if owners were to offer an optional insurance for the villa becoming uninhabitable for any reason as it would at least alert people into deciding whether they want this. Others could decide to build the fee into the rental and put the cover in the contract.
PS I live in Bournemouth and I doubt whether any of the happy holidaymakers on our rainy beaches this Bank Holiday weekend will have wondered whether their accommodation had any refund policy if the place flooded or burnt down!
<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:PS I live in Bournemouth and I doubt whether any of the happy holidaymakers on our rainy beaches this Bank Holiday weekend will have wondered whether their accommodation had any refund policy if the place flooded or burnt down![/quote]That's a good point! We're discussing Florida here and the situation is just the same all over the world, including the UK. And it's not just limited to villas either, this could just as easily happen at a hotel or any other type of accommodation.
All the more reason for every guest to make sure that they have adequate travel insurance, which is something we strongly advise them to do, so that they can decide individually what cover is important to them and what price they want to pay for that cover.