| Author |  Topic  |
Frosty
 United Kingdom
925 Posts
Joined: 15 May 2004
Status: offline |  Posted - 13 May 2009 : 16:07:05  
| Nina A,
A well structured answer without blowing smoke up anyones................. |
Neil & Kay |
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andrewmckay5
Canada
2664 Posts
Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 13 May 2009 : 17:12:40
| "As for Andrew's logic that the home that charges more is a better prospect, this is ridiculous!"
No! I said that there is a chance that the cheaper homes would not be covering their costs and therefore a worse prospect; don't spin it the other way.
I also said that if all the short listed villas are roughly the same price except for one then that was a lot cheaper then that would raise a red flag to me.
It is not an exact way to work but if the original poster is worried then I tried to offer one way of looking at it. Foreclosures occur because people cannot pay the mortgage; to me that says an owner hasn't made enough money from rentals.
Ask the owner how long they have had the home and if it was purchased in 2004, 2205 or 2206 possibly then it would have cost a lot of money.
As i said to Robert I don't want to go off in a totally different direction from the original question so DM Frosty if you want to argue. I'll give you my phone number and we can "talk."
Andrew |
http://www.orlandovillas.com/florida-vacation-rental-1338.aspx
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lafifille
France
343 Posts
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Status: offline | Posted - 13 May 2009 : 18:00:33
| From the "guest"'s point of view:
To answer the original question:
I fully understand the psychological aspect of paying in full now to be done with it: it's not rational, it just feels good. But it works too if you put the money on a saving account, in your safe, in your cookie box, in your kids' piggie  . I thought about doing it when I rented (from this site), then didn't and paid only the deposit. Then spent a few months chatting with the owner, asking questions, and by the time the balance was taken I felt very comfortable with my renting. Of course I could still listen to the people who tell me: "OMG how could you rent from a private owner when you get there it might not be there or in ruins blah blah blah". I could worry, I decided not to, because I've come to trust the people I'm renting from, and it's not rational either, some will say.
So my advice is: exchange with your potential owners, I've found them quite quick to answer questions even when I had not made up my mind yet. Ask your questions, make your choice, pay the deposit, stash the money somewhere, and do not hesitate contacting your chosen owner when you have a question.
About the debate which has developed on the side, still from the guest's point of view: I paid what I found was a reasonable price for the villa I rented, with the amenities it offered at the time I wanted to rent. It happens it was one of the cheapest I had selected, with another 2 or 3 (can't remember now). Reasonable for me might be expensive for some, and cheap for others.
I own a B&B, in the family house, which has been in the family since the 17th century. I took the business over when my parents retired. Places me in the "no mortgage" situation I guess. It's not my main activity, we just see it as a mean to keep the property in good shape, and meeting interesting people from all over the world, so I can offer "reasonable" rates, which some of my colleagues in the area would call "cheap". But I cover my expenses, and even make a profit, which is often invested in renovating another part of the house, changing the decoration, or helps pay the taxes! I take great pride in my house and keep it in great shape. It would pain me if someone told me he wouldn't stay at my place on the assertion that being cheaper than the average I'm probably offering lower quality accomodation. It would simply be not true. Same probably applies to those owners who have bought many many years ago, and whose property is paid for. |
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Carla
 United Kingdom
9917 Posts
Joined: 13 Feb 2002
Status: offline | Posted - 13 May 2009 : 20:46:37
| I would not stay at your place Lafifille if you were among the cheapest in your area. I have learnt, in my many years of travelling, that you almost certainly get exactly what you pay for! Maybe that would not be the case with your B&B but I've learnt not to risk it, especially with my valuable vacation time.
I have to ask the question: Why are you leaving money on the table just because your expenses are less than those of other similar businesses in your area?
If you are marketing solely on price, that is not the most important factor for most people. Sure, they want a bargain, but that doesn't mean that they want cheap. There is a very big difference.
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Carla
http://www.orlandovillas.com/florida-vacation-rental-135.aspx |
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lafifille
France
343 Posts
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Status: offline | Posted - 13 May 2009 : 21:59:50
| Carla:
I'm not saying I'm practicing cheap prices, I'm saying I'm practising what I consider reasonable rates, that SOME of my colleagues would qualify cheap. I could equally qualify their prices as outrageous. Our business is doing very well, thank you, and has done so for about 40 years, which I think is entitling me to voice my opinion. I can understand that someone who has heavily invested on a short period of time needs to ask for more money than I am, and it's fine with me. I just don't agree if they say "we're more expensive so we're better".
I am not marketing on price (who said that?), and you're right, most people consider more important to have quality accomodation, peace, beautiful setting, good regional food, and above all a friendly welcome. I'm a member of a well-known association that would kick me out in a blink if people complained. Thus my parallel with renting a villa from a private owner on this site. I'm not saying it's the same, I just think it's similar enough.
To answer your question: we're several in the area to practice the same rates. Most of us have been here for a long time, and have seen enough sad stories to stick to a "reasonable" attitude, which has kept up in business this far, and gets us a very nice side income indeed.
I'm sorry if anyone has felt personnally assaulted by my very humble opinion on the subject, because in fact I was just trying to reassure the OP, not to start another heated debate around my business, which is definitely irrelevant here. |
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floridadreamvilla.co.uk
 United Kingdom
18912 Posts
Joined: 21 Jan 2002
Status: online | |
FraserLynn
China
408 Posts
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Status: offline | Posted - 13 May 2009 : 22:38:09
| TeenaBeena,
I have rented lots of villas directly from the owners in Florida and across Europe and NEVER had an problems at all. I have one rule of thumb only - speak to the owners and raise an questions / concerns you have with them direct. This is the only way that you can be sure that they are someone who you want to entrust your holiday with. Everyone I have rented a villa from has been really helpful, friendly and happy to answer any questions I may have, if they are not then they get screened out, simple.
All the rest is just noise. Every owners circumstances are different and to suggest that these can be understood by looking at price or where / how they market their villa is just plain daft. I think we could all predict that people who own villas are going to suggest that high prices are good and people who rent villas are more likely to be concerned about paying the right price - no surprise there.
Decide how much you want to pay, draw up your short list, speak to the owners and go with the one you like and trust and everything will be fine.
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alastair
211 Posts
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 14 May 2009 : 11:56:12
| quote:
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Originally posted by alastair
Three companies that provided travel from UK to Florida - BA, Virgin and TCD. One (TCD) advertised lower prices than the others. Which one went out of business first, causing difficulties to customers who had booked with them?
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Originally posted by Katy's Grandad
So are you advocating only ever paying the highest price available for air fare, car hire, insurance and accommodation?
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No, my post did not advocate anything. It only provided a piece of factual information. |
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sammibabe
United Kingdom
618 Posts
Joined: 19 May 2003
Status: offline | Posted - 14 May 2009 : 16:32:26
| Like Fraserlynn I have booked and used private villas all over Europe and Florida. We have never had any problems and the villas have been lovely. The last villa we had in Florida was what you would probably class as cheap. It was lovely (the kitchen and bathrooms were a little dated but that doesn't bother us) and we plan to book it again for our next visit. Looking at their visitor books they have had the villa for a long time and lots of repeat visitors. They looked like they had owned the villa for at least 12 years so there outlay could be considerably less than someone else and obviously they haven't spent money on renovations. At the end of the day you pay your money and make your choice. We spend little time in the villa so do not need it to be '5 star'. As far as the money goes I would do as previously suggested and save in an account. We are doing this with the mortgage money we are saving. Excellent regular saver account rates in Barclays and Halifax |
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chrizzy100
USA
7543 Posts
Joined: 26 May 2003
Status: offline | Posted - 15 May 2009 : 18:28:00
| I don't think any of us could say if your money is safe..I don't think how much you pay has much to do with it..I've seen bad homes that cost a lot to rent...and good homes that are cheaper..things can go belly up for anyone very quickly..but you take that risk even with a travel company..I would pay a deposit and keep the rest in the bank..
Have a great holiday..:) |
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makuk
5 Posts
Joined: 20 Aug 2009
Status: offline | Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 02:27:56
| Interesting thread, sorry to drag it up, I take 3 holidays per year, 1 to USA, 1 to Tenerife and 1 to Majorca.
At each of these holidays I always rent a villa, this year was very interesting, and clearly due to the recession I was able to negotiate fantastic rates with the villa owners. Bookings this year have been down in these countries from between 30% and 50% and the owners have had to realise that if they want bookings they need to reduce their prices, for example the villa we stayed in 2 weeks ago in Majorca - MID August - advetised for 2495 Euros, (that is what they quoted me) in the end I paid just 700 Euros for the week, the booking was extreme last minute, just 3 days before we arrived, but villa owners have started to realise that 700 Euros is better than none at all! for that week.
And things aren't getting any better in the UK or USA so when I book my villa for March 2010 I will be laughing at the prices the villa owners come back with and I guarantee I will get at least 20-30% off the quoted prices.
Some of you villa owners may be thinking, noooo way, I won't be reducing my prices, but I think you should all think very carefuly when someone wants a 30% discount off your prices, some money is better than no money at all.
I look at the availability calendars on many villa owners sites and they have sooo many spare weeks, surely some money is better than no money at all!!! Yes I know you have overheads, but they are nowhere near the prices quoted!!
And in response to the original thread, I absolutely would NOT pay for a villa up front like you are thinking of, stick it in a bank account and then pay by credit card, this recession is nowhere near over !!!!!!!!!!!
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steph_goodrum
 United Kingdom
8259 Posts
Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Status: offline | Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 10:07:12
| Hi Mark and welcome eto the forums.
As it's such an old thread I'm sure it won't matter if it's not quite on topis but one of the observations you have bought up interested me.
We have found an increasing tendency for enquirers to do exactly what you have suggested and it intrigues me somewhat as to how the conclusions you make are arrived at, not just by yourself but by many people.
You say you will be laughing at the prices that will be quoted to you as you will obviously feel they are unrealistic, (however on another thread you have already commented that you have many requirements that have not been met on previousl trips, perhaps because you have chosen homes that are cheaper?), yet you do not know the costs of operating the homes as a business. There are so many costs both obvious and hidden, including but not limited to
Mortgage, Property tax, Sales and Tourist taxes (approx 13% of rental in most Counties), Insurance, Hoa fees, Lawncare, Pool maintenance, Pest Control, Electric, Water, Management/Caretaker fees, Cable tv, Internet provider, telephone, licensing fees, adverting and marketing, administration for bookings, computer and office equipment and time in the UK etc. In addition to these costs there is also the unknown/unseen costs such as ongoing maintenance and upkeep, replacement of equipment, appliances, air con, pool heaters etc and the everyday items like bedding, linen etc. which need to be replaced regularly and for which contingency has to be included . This is without the issues of upgrades and extras which all need to be budgeted for.
Many of the costs you may feel are comparable to your own home but the truth is we pay 3-4 times for insurance what we do in the UK for more cover. Our electric and water bills are at least double the rate of our UK home and many other costs do not correlate at all to what we would expect.
If I were to go to Virgin, or Tesco etc. with my requirements and query the price I am quoted, I am pretty certain their reply would be "It's not an offer it's the price". Despite the fact that, as I am sure you know Retail mark up prices are typically 30/50% above cost price and therefore the price quoted bears no relation to the cost to the supplier.
As I say it is out of curiosity as to how people determine determine what is a fair price I am asking becasue we do get many requests along the lines of "my airline tickets and park tickets cost me more than I expected so I can't afford to pay the price you have quoted, therby letting us know that they have afforded the prices quoted by the other companies but somehow feel that should mean they don't have to pay full price for their accommodation (well certainly their preferred accommodation). If we can learn from their expectations then it may be that they would prefer more basic accommodation without the frills and can then trim the costs accordingly. As you mention you are a seasoned traveller then it is the opinion of people like yourself that may have some influence.
5 day Disney tickets would cost the average family around the same as the cost of 2 weeks on average that most villas would cost. Bearing in mind that accommodation is then available to them 24/7 for 14 days but the park only during opening hours for 5 days it doesnt really correlate and similarly the flight price may be the same for one person as the accomodation for the party for the week. |
Babblin Boo
http://www.orlandovillas.com/villas/92.aspx
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Edited by - steph_goodrum on 20 Aug 2009 11:27:06 |
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Snapper
 United Kingdom
4811 Posts
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 10:19:40
| quote:
Originally posted by makuk
And things aren't getting any better in the UK or USA so when I book my villa for March 2010 I will be laughing at the prices the villa owners come back with and I guarantee I will get at least 20-30% off the quoted prices.
Some of you villa owners may be thinking, noooo way, I won't be reducing my prices, but I think you should all think very carefuly when someone wants a 30% discount off your prices, some money is better than no money at all.
Au Contraire Mark ...
This year I have booked more weeks at a higher rate than last year. Last year I booked more weeks at a higher rate than the year before. That's been the story for every year since I bought the villa. My rates go up because the cost of running the place goes up. If I want to cut rates, I also need to cut quality.
Next year is looking even better!
So your logic, which really feels like it is taken straight from the doom-and-gloom media if you don't mind me saying so, really doesn't seem to apply.
I am sure many other owners are the same!
As for your approach to renting villas ... perhaps this is why, to quote your very own words from the enquiry you sent this morning, ...
However for the last few years the villas have not had everything I need/wanted
Curious!!  |
Steve.
http://www.orlandovillas.com/villas/1418.aspx |
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Katys Grandad
United Kingdom
2233 Posts
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 11:35:00
| quote:
Originally posted by steph_goodrum
If I were to go to Virgin, or Tesco etc. with my requirements and query the price I am quoted, I am pretty certain their reply would be "It's not an offer it's the price". Despite the fact that, as I am sure you know Retail mark up prices are typically 30/50% above cost price and therefore the price quoted bears no relation to the cost to the supplier.
And, as we all know, Virgin and Tesco never, ever reduce their prices or have special offers to reflect market conditions. |
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steph_goodrum
United Kingdom
8259 Posts
Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Status: offline | Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 11:54:43
| They do, but it is at their choice and discretion. They decide where they can reflect cost savings or have products with limited shelf life etc. and then make the offer, the difference I am trying to make is that I couldnt go to them and tell them how much I wish to pay and expect them to sell me their product for that price. They don't work on the same principal as many overseas street markets where haggling and bartering are the norm and neither should any business that wants to continue trading at a high standard without subsidising costs from their own external sources, which it is pretty obvious that if outgoings exceed income is going to be the case.
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Babblin Boo
http://www.orlandovillas.com/villas/92.aspx
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makuk
5 Posts
Joined: 20 Aug 2009
Status: offline | Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 14:33:29
| Interesting replies which I knew I would receive, it is also good to see that you are making more money this year than you did last year.
My requirements are what I have decided I want from a villa, not the fact that the villa promised me I would recieve this, but over the last few years this is what I have decided I want from a villa.
It is fact that there are more villas available in a certain week than there are people looking for villas in that week, if this was not the case then every villa in florida would be full for every week of the year.
It is most definately a renters market right now and I have set a budget for my villa rental and will not pay more and I know I will get what I want at the price I want to pay. And in fact this year I want 2 villas so that's a nice little booking for someone!!
It is now up to the villa owners to either take the price I want to pay, hold out for a better booking or MAYBE have an empty villa for the 2 weeks - Some money is clearly better than an empty villa!! And as I am looking for March it's not exactly a busy time of the year!
It is clear that villa owners CAN reduce prices, they just don't want to, the reason we know this is because you charge different prices for different months!
This year I stayed at Crescent Lakes, in the street I was staying at 3 villas owned by UK owners had foreclosed that year, perhaps they were standing their ground and only taking the price they had advertised and not reducing their prices to ensure they could pay their mortgage!! Maybe if they had they would still be there.
And with regards to Virgin, "I KNOW FOR A FACT" that within the next 3 months they will be reducing their air fares from London to Orlando, currently they are about £450 return, within 3 months these same flights will be reduced to about £250 return.
Out of interest Steve, how are your bookings for the rest of this year, are you fully booked for 2009?
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Ruth
 United Kingdom
6885 Posts
Joined: 13 Feb 2002
Status: offline | Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 14:58:49
| In my opinion for what it is worth
March is actually a busy month as American guests have spring break during March usually
Some money is not better than no money at all to an intelligent villa owner as guests cause wear and tear and use utilities |
Ruth
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Snapper
United Kingdom
4811 Posts
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 15:10:58
| Mark - I think you have your facts and figures mixed up a little. I will give you the best answer I can. If you don't agree that's entirely your perogative. I also will make this the last post to avoid the thread degenerating as these threads often do ...
quote:
Originally posted by makuk
It is fact that there are more villas available in a certain week than there are people looking for villas in that week, if this was not the case then every villa in florida would be full for every week of the year.
I don't think this is a fact. If you can point me to an official source of this statistic I'll happily agree with you. Until then - this is your opinion.
Personally I think it is wrong and despite everything you might read in the media I don't see any supply/demand imbalance. Over 70,000,000 (70 million) people a year visit Orlando. There are around 20,000 vacation homes. Personally I think that half of these homes are very tired and run-down (none that you would find on these sites I should add). There is plenty of supply in my eyes.
quote:
Originally posted by makuk
It is most definately a renters market right now ...
That actually depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for 'average' I dare say you are right. Perhaps this is why you have been disappointed in the last few years. Top end villas are booking out over 12 months in advance. That doesn't sound like a renters market to me!
quote:
Originally posted by makuk
Some money is clearly better than an empty villa!!
Sadly it isn't, and is why many owners are finding themselves foreclosed right now.
quote:
Originally posted by makuk
And as I am looking for March it's not exactly a busy time of the year!
Errrrr - who told you that? March is hugely busy! You are looking at this from your own point of view and then making sweeping assumptions that the rest of the world is the same. It isn't! March is very very busy indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by makuk
It is clear that villa owners CAN reduce prices, they just don't want to, the reason we know this is because you charge different prices for different months!
A villa owner can do anything they choose. Some choose to price the same all year round. Some choose to vary prices. Villa's cost a different amount to run at different times of the year. You'll find a different approach from each villa owner.
quote:
Originally posted by makuk
This year I stayed at Crescent Lakes, in the street I was staying at 3 villas owned by UK owners had foreclosed that year, perhaps they were standing their ground and only taking the price they had advertised and not reducing their prices to ensure they could pay their mortgage!! Maybe if they had they would still be there.
Perhaps they subscribed to the 'any amount is better than an empty villa theory'. Sadly, and quite apt to the original question of this thread, any owner who charges less per week than the villa costs to run will eventually go bankrupt (based on the number of weeks that they expect to sell, or are capable of selling). They may choose to fund the shortfall themselves for a while but eventually the money runs out. Funnily enough, IMHO, the villas offering the biggest discounts are usually those closest to this end-point and are in a panic-stricken downward spiral from which there is no way out.
quote:
Originally posted by makuk
Out of interest Steve, how are your bookings for the rest of this year, are you fully booked for 2009?
Very good - thanks for asking I have a week left in November and one in December but I'm already way beyond my plan for this year. From mid-December I'm chokka through to mid-April 2010. Much of the remainder of 2010 is already sold, as is some of 2011 ... including the 'slow' month of March!!!
I'm happy to chat through any of the above, but might I suggest that if you want to do so, sign-up for the owners area of the forums where this kind of discussion is best placed. I'm always keen to learn new things, and vice versa, you might learn more about villa rentals and perhaps understand better the reason why you are struggling to find the villa you want at the price you want to pay.
Have a great trip. |
Steve.
http://www.orlandovillas.com/villas/1418.aspx |
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FraserLynn
China
408 Posts
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Status: offline | Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 15:38:22
| I too rent villas regularly (at least twice) ever year and agree with much of what has been said on both sides. At the end of the day you get what you pay for.
The bit which I find very hard to agree with is that a cheap rental means a risky rental, I just don't see how this can ever be a straight equation.
If we take the retailing analogy that has already been offered then this is like saying that Lidls is more likely to go bankrupt than Waitrose, clearly not the case. Each are totally different business models and both are set up to be profitable and yet their price points are completely different. Some people will choose to shop at Lilds and may (but not necessarily) get a lower quality product as a result, but I think that they can be confident that the store will still be there the next week.
IMHO the scaremongering that cheaper prices means more risky choices just can't be substantiated without knowing all the details of the business model a villa owner is running, actually I suspect it just serves to put people off risking a villa rental direct from the owner, preferring instead to have the guarantees that a hotel or a ABTA backed booking has to offer.
In my experience, every villa we have booked has been exactly what we expected, every owner I have dealt with has honest and solvent and every holiday has been fantastic, even though some have been cheaper than others.
As long as you are prepared to do a bit of homework, ask a few questions and prepare to trust someone I don't see why everyone can't be confident of the same experiences, regardless of budget. |
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Andrena
United Kingdom
1270 Posts
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 23:06:47
| Mark,
I too will be laughing, but I will be laughing at you - as I would not rent my villa to you at anything other than my stated price. If you don't want it then tough, why should I care. I rent my home because I cannot be there all the time and it is better to be rented than to stand empty as I still have costs even if it is empty. But one thing I would never do is subsidise someone else's holiday. If they can't afford a reasonable rate then they should stay at home. Most people I know who have rented their homes at silly prices to people who only wanted to pay silly uneconomical prices have been sorry. They are usually the sort of people who do not take care of the property and it ends up costing more than they got in rental.
So keep laughing, one day you will find that you have booked your flights and oh dear there are no villas, or villas that you would want to stay in, available - gosh how we would all laugh when you came on this site begging for somewhere to stay - we could charge you what we liked and you would either have to pay up or sleep rough. Now wouldn't that just be wonderful- don't scoff, once all the cheapskates have been foreclosed upon that could just happen.
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www.orlandovillas.com/florida-vacation-rental-1398.aspx |
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