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ccarcher
 United Kingdom
282 Posts
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Status: offline |  Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 13:17:52  
| Looking for thoughts or any help / advice
Just wondering when the Visa Waiver Program was introduced and any changes over the last 12 years which may affect my own circumstances
I've been to Florida now around 8 time over a period of 30 years since I was a kid around 10, the last time was for Christmas 95 when I was 29 and prior to that May 93 (Aged 27)
Now 41 and returning with my own children in July for 4 weeks cant wait, and cant believe its 12 years since my last visit
The reason for my question is that I have had no problems previously with immigration, but theres an incident in the back of my mind which is bugging me
Over 20 years ago I think I was around 22 but I can hardly recall it
I was involved in what at the time was a handbags at 10 paces, pushing and shoving between two teams whilst playing cricket after being struck with the ball
I ended up in what I think was the local magistrates court, and having to pay a member of the other team compensation for his apparent injuries (to this day is questionable as to who caused them)
Anyone else would of probbaly not even bothered with it, but he worked as a barrister it turned out and knew the law, so took it to court, knowing he would receive compensation for his apparent injuries (I think around £100)
I honestly dont know if it resulted in a criminal record or not, and it has never caused me a problem either in the UK or US previously, and never worried about it or been in court since
Any thoughts would be appreciated, dont want it to suddenly come up and mess up what will be a fantastic first holiday for my children of 5 and 4 in Florida
I think having been to Florida on at least 2 occassions since the incident, that it is obviously overlooked or of little importance
Am I making a mountain out of a molehill
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Robert5988
United Kingdom
1519 Posts
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 13:36:21
| All you need to do is read the relevant question on the I94W - there is a copy on this forum - and if you can answer 'No' you are OK
The main criteria is were you arrested? The second issue is was it for a crime of 'moral turpitude'.(and, although it is not possible to accurately define that term, it means a serious offence)
As you have explained it, there is absolutely no reason for you not to travel on a Visa Waiver.
Do not phone the Embassy as they will refuse to discuss the matter and you will be required to attend for an interview.
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ccarcher
United Kingdom
282 Posts
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Status: offline | Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 14:54:39
| Thanks for that Robert
Your thinking is along the same lines as mine, I did think that by contacting the embassy or police I could be opening up a whole can of worms
Moral turpitude does seem rather difficult to define, and certainly appears to be for crimes more sinister and nastier than a few cricket players pushing an shoving
And certainly as the form suggests to the best of my knowledge I have not been involved in a crime of Moral turpitude, and can answer NO
whilst not knowing is no defence, from this description that I found, I honestly dont believe it relates to me
It has been held that the following offenses are crimes involving moral turpitude:
• Fraud or false pretenses in obtaining something of value
• Larceny or a misdemeanor theft by taking
• Larceny after trust
• Murder
• Soliciting for prostitutes
• Voluntary manslaughter
• Sale of narcotics or other illegal drugs
• Pattern of failure to file federal tax returns in years in which taxes are due
• Criminal Issuance of a bad check
• Making a false report of a crime
The following have been held to be offenses which are not crimes involving moral turpitude:
• Public drunkenness
• Driving under the influence
• Carrying a concealed weapon
• Unlawful sale of liquor
• Fighting
• Simple Battery
• Simple Assault
• Misdemeanor criminal trespass
• Child abandonment
• Misdemeanor offense of escape
• Misdemeanor offense of obstructing a law enforcement officer
• The federal misdemeanor offense of Conspiracy in Restraint of Interstate Trade and
Commerce
• Possession of less than one ounce of marijuana
[This is taken from Handbook of Criminal Evidence by Davis, 2000 edition.]
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blott
 United Kingdom
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ccarcher
United Kingdom
282 Posts
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blott
United Kingdom
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 United Kingdom
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 United Kingdom
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Robert5988
United Kingdom
1519 Posts
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 17:55:37
| We have had this discussion in countless threads.
The words on the I94-W are simply ambiguous. When you start delving into Embassy regulations it is even more convoluted.
Bear in mind that this is the very same form that is used for all Nationalities - many of whom do not speak 'proper English like whot we does'. If we can't understand what it means, what chance have they got?
If the intent was simply to find out if you have been arrested, why would they not put "have you ever been arrested?"
What is the point of even mentioning 'moral turpitude' or terms of confinement etc etc?
Leaving the technicalities apart, surely we must use common sense here. It clearly is not the intent to bar persons convicted of a minor offence. If the OP tried to find details of his offence, it pretty certainly wouldn't be on any police record or indeed court record. | | Report this post to a moderator | goto top of page |
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blott
United Kingdom
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Snapper
United Kingdom
4357 Posts
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 19:21:26
| You know, I still read it that both arrested and/or convicted would have to be for a crime involving moral turpitude. On other questions they use a semicolon where they want to put a harder break.
So if they wanted to include arrests (for any crime) plus convictions for crimes involving moral turpitude, wouldn't they have written:
Have you ever been arrested; or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude.
In fact, while typing that I now believe even more that the or links rather than excludes. Take the last bit of the phrase: for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude. If the or was excluding you could read this as:
Have you ever been arrested for an offense?
A moral turpitude offense is a subset of all the offenses so if the or's were excluding or's (or whatever the correct phrase is) there wouldn't be a need to mention moral turpitude at all.
Given that you likely aren't arrested for doing nothing they could reduce the question to a much more readable:
Have you ever been arrested?
So all that said, for what it's worth, IMHO, usual disclaimers apply, I read this that if one has been arrested and/or convicted for a crime that does not involve moral turpitude, you can tick No and travel under the VWP.
One does wonder if the ambiguity is there by accident, or intentionally? |
Steve.
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Robert5988
United Kingdom
1519 Posts
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 19:52:33
| Blott,
The question asks:
"Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude"(all in the same sentence)
My English grammar may be a little rusty, but surely the subject of the sentence is 'an offence or crime involving moral turpitude' and thus 'arrested or convicted' refer to that subject.
Suppose a question read "have you ever ridden a motor-cycle or driven a car at over 70mph on a motorway". You are not seriously suggesting that you would answer 'Yes' if you had merely ridden a motor-cycle(at any speed below 70mph on a normal road)
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Edited by - Robert5988 on 14 Feb 2007 23:59:30 | | Report this post to a moderator | goto top of page |
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ccarcher
United Kingdom
282 Posts
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Status: offline | Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 20:30:21
| Yep thats my interpretation of it to, the or links the two phrases of arrested and convicted to "the" crime of moral terpitude
As previously said the question overall refers to "the" crime of moral terpitude,(which mine certainly was not anyway) and therefore in my honest interpretation of the sentence, the "or" links the arrest to the crime of moral terpitude
if the or does not link the two, then simply arrested would suffice for any crime as being suggested by others to the arrest part of the sentence
as someone else suggested maybe the ambiguity is with intent
Thanks to all for their contributions, I believe that I am perfectly within my rights and can also honestly answer the question with a NO, as I have not been arrested or convicted of the crime of moral terpitude
When I am refused entry and deported on the 22nd July you will read it here first !! | | Report this post to a moderator | goto top of page |
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ccarcher
United Kingdom
282 Posts
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Status: offline | Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 15:08:28
| Also since the offence back in late 80's, I have travelled to the US in 93 and 95, on what I imagine was the same Visa Waiver program, then I would imagine that if there was a problem or an issue, then it would of been found before ??
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ccarcher
United Kingdom
282 Posts
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Status: offline | Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 15:24:02
| Maybe I am trying to make myself feel better but this is worrying me  sick that it may spoil my kids first trip to the states, and really I should be enjoying the build up and planning
However the more I read it (and it would appear there are a number of parts to the same question), the more I am sure it relates to
an arrest or conviction for a crime of moral terpitude,
A arrest , conviction or violation related to a controlled substance
an arrest or conviction for two or more offences with a prison sentence of 5 years or more
In which case I am happy to answer NO as none of the above apply to me
At the end of the day, without access to the internet, I would be none the wiser until the time I was completing the form on the plane,
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ccarcher
United Kingdom
282 Posts
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Status: offline | Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 21:38:56
| Just an update
having mused over this for the weekend, I took some professional advice today, which whilst not cheap was certainly worth it in the peace of mind it gave me alone
Anyway following the advice, whilst his opinion was that I would probably be ok should I choose the waiver option, and be found out the worst I was likely to experience would be some uncomfortable questioning
Was also advised that there was no reason that a visa would be refused and therefore would make sense as I have the time to obtain one which I will now do
You'll be suprised how much they find acceptable apparently at US immigration, and they also like the upfront approach and effort of to reveal and resolve an issue rather than keeping it hidden and hoping it wont come to light
Although word of warning here, drug related is really not good, and can prove very difficult to overcome
So I have completed the subject access form, will wait 30 days or so for it to arrive and in the meantime schedule my interview to coincide with its return
and hopefully all being well, by the end of April I shall have had my interview and have received back my passport with visa
As I say may not be for everyone but at least I can then travel with peace of mind, rather than thinking the worst for the next 5 months
If anyone else is undecided then I would also perhaps advise to perhaps seek good quality professional advice
Happy to pass on the details of who I visited if anyone is interested but obviously I cant post it on this forum | | Report this post to a moderator | goto top of page |
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Robert5988
United Kingdom
1519 Posts
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Status: offline | Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 23:11:35
| Who gave the 'professional advice'? Not his name - what is his profession? and you paid for that advice!!!!
How do you know it is good quality advice? Did you get a second opinion? or a third opinion? or are you expert enough now to judge what is good quality advice?
Why can't you 'obviously' give details on this forum; like how much he charged?
What do you mean by 'found out'?
If you have read the regulations and are not sure if you qualify for a Waiver, then apply for a Visa. Why go to someone else(and pay) to be given exactly the same advice. Do you think he has access to some regulations that are not publically available?
Now you will probably need to get hold of your Memorandum of Conviction and from 20 years ago for something you "can hardly recall" that will be difficult. Take a day off travel to London/Belfast to get a Visa when you had clearly decided that you qualified for a waiver.
Of course a Visa will not be a problem to obtain, if your offence was something that wouldn't be a problem on a waiver, it is self-evident it wouldn't be a problem.
I must say I find it a little surprising that you join this forum a week ago seeking advice and now are advising people to pay for professional advice. That advice being go to the embassy and get a Visa; and what looks suspiciously like touting business for this unknown person.
Well anyone else reading this thread, and who is undecided what to do, here is some free advice - go to the Embassy and don't pay for someone to tell you to go to the Embassy.
Unbelievable!!
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Edited by - Robert5988 on 20 Feb 2007 00:13:03 | | Report this post to a moderator | goto top of page |
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roger
 USA
4067 Posts
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ccarcher
United Kingdom
282 Posts
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Status: offline | Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 11:16:36
| Sorry you feel like that Robert, I certainly have no link to the person or company, and have no intention of promoting their business in anyway
Yes I offered to pass this information on, if others felt they required it(I could of just posted it anyway),
But thats not how forums work, and it would only be contact details I would pass on, it would then be for the indivdual to decide if it was right for them or not as I did
The fact that I only joined this forum a week or so ago , has no bearing on this, the reason I came to this forum was to find out information on this very issue
And it was from the content of this such forum that I found I may have a problem travelling now under the visa waiver program something I had never realised before
so having listened to the OPINIONS (and thats what it comes down to) of others on this forum including yourself, I decided that for my own peace of mind I would seek further professional advice, with my situation
Yes I could have gone directly to the embassy, but I was unsure at that time whether this would in itself be a good or bad thing, and potentially open a can of worms
and that is why I made the choice I did, seeking professional advice from a qualified US Immigration and Visa Laywer with many years of experience dealing with these such issues on a daily basis
AS opposed to those who are just passing on their own opinions and views based on experiences that have happend to them or others they know of
it may not be for everyone to take this approach, and maybe in my case I am indeed taking a hammer to crack an egg
But you pay your money and take you choice, and for me just as I have already said, just in the relief and peace of mind it has given I am glad I did
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florida4sun
 United Kingdom
7039 Posts
Joined: 16 Feb 2002
Status: offline | Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 19:49:14
| Dont worry about robert, we are used to him getting his knickers in a twist Thansk for posting some helpful info.
quote:
Originally posted by ccarcher
Sorry you feel like that Robert, I certainly have no link to the person or company, and have no intention of promoting their business in anyway
Yes I offered to pass this information on, if others felt they required it(I could of just posted it anyway),
But thats not how forums work, and it would only be contact details I would pass on, it would then be for the indivdual to decide if it was right for them or not as I did
The fact that I only joined this forum a week or so ago , has no bearing on this, the reason I came to this forum was to find out information on this very issue
And it was from the content of this such forum that I found I may have a problem travelling now under the visa waiver program something I had never realised before
so having listened to the OPINIONS (and thats what it comes down to) of others on this forum including yourself, I decided that for my own peace of mind I would seek further professional advice, with my situation
Yes I could have gone directly to the embassy, but I was unsure at that time whether this would in itself be a good or bad thing, and potentially open a can of worms
and that is why I made the choice I did, seeking professional advice from a qualified US Immigration and Visa Laywer with many years of experience dealing with these such issues on a daily basis
AS opposed to those who are just passing on their own opinions and views based on experiences that have happend to them or others they know of
it may not be for everyone to take this approach, and maybe in my case I am indeed taking a hammer to crack an egg
But you pay your money and take you choice, and for me just as I have already said, just in the relief and peace of mind it has given I am glad I did
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ccarcher
United Kingdom
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Visa Waiver Program Any Changes ??
